[00:00:00] Mickelle: Hi, I’m Mikkel Weber, founder and auteur of House of Peregrine. Expat. Immigrant. Pioneer. None of these were a fit. But Peregrine describes what we are all about perfectly. Those that craft their life story with intention. I’ve spent the last six years in awe of the life changing connections and stories I have experienced while living abroad and believe it is time for this adventure to be recognized, Celebrated and elevated to the life stage that it is.
[00:00:33] Mickelle: Through these interviews, I hope to connect those living internationally more deeply to both the place they are living and with themselves and those around them, we cover everything from international finances and meaning making to global parenting and relationships to make your time abroad, more intentional, edifying and full of beauty.
[00:00:53] Mickelle: Find us at HouseofPeregrine. com where you can find more ways to connect with the ethos of Peregrine. I hope you enjoy today’s guest. Let’s get started.
[00:01:05] Mickelle: Susanne Mooji is an attorney at law who specializes in European migration law. She advises both businesses and individuals on matters of migration and naturalization in the Netherlands.
[00:01:15] Mickelle: She was born here in the Netherlands, but has lived abroad and now really enjoys bringing the world to her country. She and I discussed the way immigration and visas affect our life planning, how Europe compares to the rest of the world and how it is changing when it comes to migration and ways we can plan ahead to avoid Really stressful situations with visas.
[00:01:36] Mickelle: We also discuss things to consider for children who have lived a lot of their lives in a country that they do not have a passport for. Visas and immigration laws are a big part of living internationally. And Susanne Mooji gives us some great advice and perspective on how to think about it. Plan for and how and when to seek support on your own journey abroad.
[00:01:56] Mickelle: I hope you really enjoy today’s episode. If you do, please feel free to share it with a friend. This is the best way to get the word out about and support House of Peregrine and our mission to connect people living internationally, more deeply with each other, the place they currently call home and themselves.
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[00:02:44] Mickelle: I do read every single comment. If you are not yet following us on social media, please do so. We are House of Peregrine on all social media platforms. That’s Instagram, Facebook, Pinterest, Twitter, YouTube, and LinkedIn. And on all those channels, we discuss living abroad and ways to find a deeper connection with yourself, those around you, and the place you currently call home.
[00:03:05] Mickelle: If you would like to know more about House of Peregrine or memberships or events, please find out more at HouseofPeregrine. com. Okay, on to today’s episode. Welcome. Welcome, Susanne Mooji, to the podcast. Thank you so much for coming on today. I’m really excited to talk to you about the work you’re doing with immigration.
[00:03:26] Susanne: Thank you, Mikael. It’s a pleasure to be here. I’m honored and I’m really looking forward to today.
[00:03:32] Mickelle: Great. I would love for you to first start out and to introduce us, introduce us to what you’re doing, who you are. Um, and, and I would love for you to start maybe back how you grew up.
[00:03:46] Susanne: All right, perfect. Well, my name is Susanne Mooji Moy.
[00:03:49] Susanne: I work as an immigration attorney for over 15 years now in Amsterdam. I assist in all sorts of cases, but I don’t assist with refugee cases, because if you specialize in that practice, you’re really occupied by that. And you don’t have time for other clients that have different cases. So my cases are mostly consisting of expats living in Amsterdam or anywhere else in the Netherlands, and, but also creatives and self employed artists, um, yeah, name it.
[00:04:22] Susanne: And it’s in my practice. And I also specialize in nationality law. So I also advise people on how to obtain Dutch nationality, but also how to keep it. And once they’ve lost it, which also happens due to living abroad for various years sometimes, I advise former Dutch citizens on, yeah, their nationality and sometimes even their children or their grandchildren.
[00:04:47] Susanne: So it’s a very broad practice that I love. I never expected myself to become an attorney, uh, When I was young, I grew up a little bit outside of Amsterdam. Uh, I was more hoping to become a judge. So that was already quite ambitious at young age. And of course, as many you expect to go for the criminal cases.
[00:05:13] Susanne: So I started my studies mostly focused on that. By the way, I studied far from Amsterdam, at least from a Dutch perspective, I studied in Maastricht at Maastricht University. That had to do with their extreme focus on European law at the time, still, but at the time it was very special. Uh, and I really wanted to learn more about that.
[00:05:36] Susanne: I studied for a year in Spain, uh, and then I thought, okay, what to do now? And I firstly ended up at the government at an independent advisory committee, um, that advises on immigration affairs, uh, to the then minister of immigration, now secretary of state. Uh, I worked there for a few years after my studies, and then I was always hoping to work for the firm I work now for, but I thought it was way, um, Yeah, too early to hope for that.
[00:06:11] Susanne: At the time, lawyers were, uh, often very experienced when they started. So I thought I need to build up some years, but then I was lucky to get a position here.
[00:06:21] Mickelle: Wow.
[00:06:22] Susanne: Yeah. I stick to it.
[00:06:24] Mickelle: That’s amazing. So tell me, tell me what you think drove your early fascination with European law, uh, immigration law.
[00:06:33] Susanne: I think because of, I’ve always thought that there’s more than just the Netherlands.
[00:06:38] Susanne: It’s a very small country and it’s a great country for many reasons, obviously, but you, yeah, I’ve always wanted to explore more. And I thought and was under the assumption that if I would study European law, that at least I could get myself possibly a position abroad. Um, here I am still in the Netherlands.
[00:07:00] Susanne: I’ve lived in Spain. I’ve lived in London. Uh, so it’s not always been Uh, Netherlands focused. What with my current practice, I, I am in the Netherlands, but due to my clients, I’m still able to travel. So to say, so I’m, I’ve still feel connected to the international world.
[00:07:20] Mickelle: So you brought the world to you.
[00:07:22] Susanne: Yeah. You mentioned this nicely. Yes.
[00:07:27] Mickelle: Yeah. Nice. And so you. Have always thought the world is a big place and you were fascinated by it I would love to hear how if there is a difference you can Editorialize in any way between countries between like bigger countries So like my country the United States is incredibly I think difficult and punishing for people immigrating
[00:07:50] And
[00:07:50] Mickelle: you’re in European Union and the Netherlands Is it much different?
[00:07:54] Mickelle: I mean, it is, but can you maybe explain that?
[00:07:56] Susanne: Yeah, it’s, I mean, of course I don’t know the other systems by heart, but what I can tell for most, what we call Western countries, so to say, the immigration systems are quite alike. Of course there’s differences, but there is in general a quite a restrictive approach in terms of who do we admit and who not.
[00:08:20] Susanne: And then, Usually countries are mostly encouraging for immigrants that are going to help their economies. So the highly skilled migrant immigration, that’s all usually more or less the same. Although let’s see what happens in the next years. And it’s already happening, I think, in various countries. But what I think the Netherlands can share, at least with the UK, although they’re no longer EU, and so forth.
[00:08:49] Susanne: We have a very restrictive immigration approach. We are a popular country to immigrate to, and we make it quite difficult for some people, or for many even. I mean, the immigration laws itself are quite rigid, and the case law coming out of it is also quite rigid in general. So in that sense, we share the kind of like, similar system like the U.
[00:09:16] Susanne: S., like Australia, for example, but I think still I dare to say that compared to the U. S., compared to Australia, we are a bit more open still. It’s at least easier to get through the process. That’s what I hear from clients who’ve gone through similar processes abroad. I must say that I think that we are quite similar in immigration schemes to the UK.
[00:09:43] Susanne: Other than that, of course, we still allow EU citizens moving here and working here, unlike the UK.
[00:09:51] Mickelle: Right. And you mentioned, um, that it’s going to become harder in the next few years. Um, and so I’m going to ask you a philosophical question and jump right into the meat at the beginning of this, but, um, tell me what you see on the horizon that’s making it maybe different.
[00:10:06] Susanne: Yeah, I mean, what we see on the horizon, it’s already what I felt, uh, in the past few months after the electoral outcome. But what has now been bundled in the coalition agreement as we have it since last week doesn’t look too positive. Uh, also not for regular immigration, so they are very much focused on making the asylum system, so the refugee cases, as difficult as possible.
[00:10:35] Susanne: So, of course, we are tied to all sorts of European rules, uh, there. We have a common European asylum system. However, they are really going to try to get it as difficult as possible within the EU. Of course, what is possible between the law, but they are possibly also going to make changes where they can.
[00:10:54] Susanne: But then, aside from that, yeah, the government has announced that they are not going to just attack the asylum seekers, that they are really wanting to have the most restrictive immigration system, uh, since years. And what that will mean, of course, is that we don’t know yet. I’m sure they will try to find ways to make it more difficult.
[00:11:20] Susanne: The question is, will it also affect the highly skilled migrants? So far, there is a sentence in this coalition agreement saying that they still want to, of course, help out businesses that need you. highly skilled migrants, but that they’re also going to be very much focused on abuse of that, that they’re really going to see if they can make the thresholds higher to get here, even as highly skilled migrants, they want to see more work permits, where normally they’re Maybe there are no work permits needed for, so it will get more complicated to get it.
[00:11:55] Susanne: That’s what they plan on doing, so let’s see where they will actually come up with. I am foreseeing that if this coalition will actually stay, and if they are actually going to function, because that’s always the question, of course. Yeah, I’m very curious how it will reflect that. to our work, but I’m, I’m fearing that it will become harder in the coming years, and that there is a lot of work for us as lawyers to fight it, or to at least help people to get in and to be able to stay here.
[00:12:32] Susanne: But we’re, yeah, how concrete that will become, we don’t know, and it will certainly not be easy.
[00:12:40] Mickelle: Right. Um, and do you think that that is just the broad nationalism we’re seeing kind of shit kind of going around the world? Is that what this is kind of result of? Or is there’s more wars nearby in Europe? Um, these sorts of things is that?
[00:12:58] Mickelle: You don’t have to say if you don’t want, but is that what it boils down to?
[00:13:01] Susanne: Yeah. I mean, it’s not my special specialization, but it’s just what I think it’s, it’s, it’s a trend. Right. And I always say it comes from the U S to the UK to us. I’m not sure if that’s correct. So, but that’s just my feel. Um, and I feel that this is happening and of course, Certain elements don’t help such as It is difficult for people now to find housing and then it’s always easy to blame immigrants for that.
[00:13:32] Susanne: Of course, I’m, all I’m saying is that also in Amsterdam, uh, the salary structures for highly skilled migrants are making that they are possibly able to pay a higher rent than just a local employee. So there is a bit of, you know, Truth in it from that perspective. Yep So yeah, there’s a lot of people that that just feel that there’s some something wrong in this country whereas if you look at to edit from a different perspective, I think, but that’s easy to say.
[00:14:05] Susanne: I know that that’s not for everyone, but that I still think that we’re having quite a solid country with very good conditions to live in, but that’s not for everyone. The same field. So I don’t dare to jump into that too much.
[00:14:21] Mickelle: I’m asking the lawyer about politics. Thanks. No.
[00:14:26] And
[00:14:26] Mickelle: I remember when I moved here, uh, before we came, we were able to, um, get our visa and everything.
[00:14:34] Mickelle: It was very, um, smooth process. And then I remember arriving and it being. You know, it’s kind of like they rolled out the red carpet and then we got here and people were like, we’re tired of people like you coming and all this high rent and just, you know, and, and that was a, it was a little bit of a shock.
[00:14:52] Mickelle: But also I was glad people were so honest about it because it made it so it wasn’t personal, right? Um, but that there was an actual problem because we. Yeah, the requirements are there all this stuff and so there is an incongruence at least that I felt between the government welcoming Highly skilled migrants and the people welcoming highly skilled migrants and the effect it was having on the people like it’s it’s not like they’re Just being hateful.
[00:15:17] Mickelle: They see it as real also. So
[00:15:19] yeah,
[00:15:19] Mickelle: so anyway, that was really interesting when I came Not legal. So I want to ask you some legal questions because you are a wealth of knowledge. Um, and so when you lived yourself abroad and then came back and started specializing in this, I don’t know if you call it a demographic or this group of people, which is what we would consider peregrines, people who either relocate from where they came or they’re living here by choice for some reason.
[00:15:44] Mickelle: You started noticing I’m sure that there was a huge need and like you said, it’s not just people coming It’s also people wanting to stay
[00:15:51] and their
[00:15:52] Mickelle: children and grandchildren So I would love to ask you about what you see people running into when they stay like say they’re like me They’re like we’re coming for a year and now it’s been seven kids Tell me what you’re seeing people run into in that instance.
[00:16:08] Susanne: Yeah, I mean there’s various possible problems they run into. Of course, uh, normally one of the parents, if there’s children already, come here to work, right? So they’re either transferred to the Netherlands by their employee abroad, or they find themselves a job here locally and they are hired as highly skilled migrants or they come as self employed.
[00:16:32] Susanne: business owners. That’s a kind of like different category, which isn’t always easy, but there is a special treaty between the US and the Netherlands that allows people to come here relatively easily to work as a self employed business owner. So there’s all these options and varieties, and then normally the partner or spouse comes along.
[00:16:54] Susanne: gets access to the labor market as well, can work, uh, children of course can go to school and so forth. You can even get like a child care allowance and all sorts of allowances to, to come and live here. So from that perspective, that’s all possible. And then when they live here, the difficulties they face or may face are either losing jobs, Changing jobs, wanting to change careers, divorce, separation, all these kind of matters that could possibly affect a residency status.
[00:17:29] Susanne: And yeah, that I come across with. quite often, actually. And then there’s also the question of when children get to the age of 18, what to do now? Or some of them are already 18 when they come here, are part of the family abroad, but cannot join the family. their parents because they’re over 18. And according to Dutch law, we don’t allow children of 18 and older in principle to the Netherlands as part of the core family.
[00:18:00] Susanne: So those are all difficult matters.
[00:18:03] Mickelle: So let’s start with one. So we can pick, I think a little bit apart. You can pick. Yeah. So when you’re thinking about children, so it sounds like if you’re moving to the Netherlands, if you have a child, but they’re over 18, they can’t move with you. But what are other things?
[00:18:15] Mickelle: So I know a lot of the question for people around me is like, my child has spent more time here than they did in their home country. They speak Dutch fluently. They’ve been here, let’s say seven and a half years. What are things for them to consider? They don’t necessarily want to give up their home passport, but
[00:18:32] yeah,
[00:18:32] Mickelle: They also feel like their child has spent a large part of their life here.
[00:18:37] Mickelle: What should they be thinking about in terms of these things?
[00:18:41] Susanne: I would always advise to go for permanent legal residence as soon as possible. It depends, of course. I mean, if a child, let me start from the beginning. If a child is born here, does not get Dutch nationality. So that in the first place, it’s, Uh, our nationality is given through blood, basically.
[00:19:02] Susanne: So, legal father, legal mother, they can give their Dutch nationality to their child. So, when you’re born here, there will be certain benefits if you stay here throughout your life, basically. But other than that, From the beginning, you just stick to your nationality that you got through your own parents and you have a residence permit.
[00:19:24] Susanne: If a child comes here at a later age, then this whole benefit later on of being born in the Netherlands does not apply. I will get back to that. If a child is coming here at age seven because of the mother having a highly skilled migrant permit to work here, Uh, for one of the companies in Amsterdam and the father joins as a spouse, the children join as being minors.
[00:19:52] Susanne: Yeah. Um, they are always dependent on the mom, yeah, having the job. And when the mom loses the job, yeah, then either the father needs to jump in to get it. Yeah. Yeah. a job and a permit, or the mother should find herself a new job, huh, if that all happens within the first five years. For children, minor children, there is this nice possibility, uh, once they’ve lived here for one year as a minor, they can apply for their own job.
[00:20:24] Susanne: own independent permit. It is in our wording called continuous legal stay. It’s still not a permanent permit, but it’s at least non temporary and it’s no longer tied to the parent. Meaning that the child will have a permit, uh, for five years, full access to the labor market. It will say, and that’s because they put it in a certain immigration category, it will say residence permit issued on the basis of non temporary, temporarily humanitarian grounds.
[00:21:01] Susanne: It’s, it’s not really a humanitarian permit. So some children find it, that’s what I heard at least, uh, a bit difficult to explain if they should have to show their permit to an employer and so forth. But yeah, it is what it is. It’s, this is what it’s mentioned, but it’s not, Issued because of a humanitarian case just because of having lived one year with a parent in the Netherlands and That I would in most cases always recommend to apply for just in case the mother loses her job for example or will face a gap because of being in between two jobs and There was not, you know, enough time to find herself a new job.
[00:21:41] Susanne: These kind of things. I would just say apply for the children for that type of permit. In that case, their years won’t be affected. Wow. That’s so clever. Yeah. And then. Um, as a child, you can file for permanent legal residency, independent from the parents. Of course, the parents should still live here, because what can they do without the parents?
[00:22:06] Susanne: So the permit gives some rights, but if the parents have to leave the country, it doesn’t add much. And it’s usually not possible for the parent then to get a permit to stay with the child. non EU child. Um, so yeah, it just helps to basically have ongoing legal stay in the Netherlands, no matter what happens to the residency status of one of the parents, as long, of course, as the parents are ultimately able to stay here.
[00:22:36] Susanne: A child can then, after five years, apply for permanent legal residence. in the Netherlands. As long as they’re under 18, there’s no civic integration requirement for them. However, they will need to show income. And of course, that again needs to come from the parent. So, uh, depending on what the parent then at that time does, we need to see if they meet.
[00:23:05] Susanne: the income requirement as applies, there’s certain possibilities and if you apply for EU long term residence, I can explain a bit more on that later on. Yeah. Um, then yeah, you can invoke all sorts of case law that you can maybe also just use savings for that. Um, um, but yeah, just so you know, after five years, in principle, a child can apply for permanent residence.
[00:23:30] Susanne: The parent does not necessarily need to do so. Yeah. And that permanent residence permit, especially the EU long term residence permit, will help the child tremendously because, uh, EU long term residence, that’s a kind of like European directive. It’s not like, it doesn’t, Just a European directive that has laid down the rules for those who stay longer than five years in a member state.
[00:24:00] Susanne: And that permit, that EU long term residence permit, once you get it, it’s really hard to be taken away
[00:24:07] from
[00:24:07] Susanne: you. They have tried to invent something like an equivalent to citizenship, so to say, or a kind of like US green card, if you want to call it that way. And it’s also reflected in case law. So with that permit, you can also live abroad for a certain period of time without losing it.
[00:24:28] Susanne: Of course, And the requirements are quite strict, but if you then return to the Netherlands, even if it’s just for a visit of two weeks, for example, within that period, uh, you can reactivate your status. So that’s great. So that’s actually just the rationale of this whole EU long term residence, uh, permit that once you have it, it’s difficult to be taken away from, and it at least gives you access to the Netherlands and work authorization for the It doesn’t yet give you residence in a different EU member state.
[00:25:02] Susanne: And it doesn’t yet give you work authorization there. But in principle, another EU member state should facilitate the residence permit issuance because you are an EU long term resident for the Netherlands. So it is a bit easier to get it. It should be easier. And in practice, it’s not always easier, but it is a kind of year round.
[00:25:25] Susanne: citizenship, but not yet. So that would be most handy for children if they don’t yet know where to settle basically, and are going to study abroad, for example, then this is handy to get. Of course, there will always be, sorry if I just keep on going, so please interrupt, but there will also be children who turn 18 during those five years.
[00:25:47] Susanne: And for them, yeah, it gets a bit more complicated to get there. The permanent residency.
[00:25:54] Mickelle: So what I’m hearing you say is if your kids have been here longer than five years or approaching five years of being here and they’re under 18, do something to make sure that they’re kind of covered. And that can include a EU permanent residency.
[00:26:09] Mickelle: It can include, um, can it include naturalization if you,
[00:26:13] Susanne: not, not if the parent doesn’t.
[00:26:16] Mickelle: Ah, okay. So if the family does it, so the child can’t do naturalization until after they’re 18. Is that right?
[00:26:22] Susanne: Yeah, that’s correct, but the issue then is that they normally have to give up their other nationality. There is an exemption for those who are born in the Netherlands and have lived here, uh, well, for naturalization.
[00:26:37] Susanne: It’s just being born in the Netherlands is enough and then living in the Netherlands when you file for naturalization after you’re 18. But there’s also a different procedure that I won’t bore you with at the moment. But then, if you’ve lived the full 18 years here, you can also qualify for Dutch nationality.
[00:26:55] Susanne: And in those cases, you don’t have to renounce your other nationality. But if you’re not born here,
[00:27:01] Mickelle: yeah. It’s difficult.
[00:27:02] Susanne: Yeah, it’s difficult. And the government, the current government has announced that they are really for it. going to be focused on one nationality only. So I’m not sure what will happen to all the exemptions that are at the moment still in place.
[00:27:16] Mickelle: That’s so interesting. So, um, it seems like the world over, they want you to be, um, have one country. When we know in reality, if you spend different, like my children, for example, feel very American, but they’ve lived here longer. So they also feel Dutch.
[00:27:36] Yeah.
[00:27:36] Mickelle: So. And people who live their lives this way, it really is difficult to choose a passport because you do belong to more than one country in a certain way, right?
[00:27:47] Mickelle: And so it brings up a lot of philosophical questions that I think are difficult and interesting that you probably deal with the result of that daily. Um, and so do you feel like, um, it’s, If there’s a strategy, um, and I, I think I came here in having no strategy. I was just like, Oh, we want to live somewhere for a year.
[00:28:08] Mickelle: Um, put the children in Dutch school. And then all of a sudden, all of these, um, you know, we kind of went through that scenario that you described where we came for a job and then we had to make sure our clock didn’t run out. So we had to do all this crazy visa stuff. Um, but. The, the children in our wake is actually an important thing to consider, at least for us, that I didn’t realize, um, is that their lives are being spent here.
[00:28:33] Mickelle: They, they’re growing up here. They think, they think they’re Amsterdamers in a way, you know, and so that, and they’ll never fully be Dutch, obviously, because they have American parents, but they’ve spent more of their life here than they have in the U. S. And so it’s a really interesting. thing to consider as parents, I think.
[00:28:52] Mickelle: Um, and I think Europeans maybe have it top of mind a bit more than maybe Americans do, or maybe other countries. But for me, it was a huge learning. So this is really important. And so when you are advising people, and I know you love to invite, advise different kinds of, um, professions. So artists are a big passion of yours.
[00:29:12] Mickelle: Um, and tell me a little bit about Why you’re passionate about artists and, and having them have easier access to your country.
[00:29:22] Susanne: Well, the thing is, what I really love is that it’s not an easy life often as an artist. Um, it’s a lot of work. It’s often unpaid. You need to put a lot of time in, in what you’re making and They have their passion and I really, really value that, that they are just doing what they want and what they feel that they need to be doing.
[00:29:48] Susanne: And they want to show it to the world and choose this, yeah, I would say often rather difficult life, uh, over a more, uh, a more, uh, Organized life, maybe, and a job and so forth. And yeah, that, that resonates.
[00:30:02] Mickelle: It sounds like it resonates with you.
[00:30:05] Susanne: Yeah. Yeah, probably. Yes. So people
[00:30:07] Mickelle: following their passions make you feel like we should, or you want to further that.
[00:30:16] Susanne: Yeah. No, I see. And I, I really see how hard they work to. be able to, in the first place, get here, and then in the second place to stay here, and that they are also often very talented, but that they need a few years to also warm up, and that that doesn’t always match the immigration system as such, because they want you to be ready already for it, whilst sometimes it’s not.
[00:30:45] Susanne: So I, yeah. I really enjoy that type of work. And do
[00:30:49] Mickelle: you think that bringing artists here from different places around the world, it contributes to the experience of the actual country and the city?
[00:30:58] Susanne: Yeah, absolutely. And of course, that’s already now, I mean, Amsterdam has become quite difficult to live for artists.
[00:31:06] Susanne: Although they’re trying their utmost best by offering all sorts of places to live and studios and so forth, but artists often move to different cities around, uh, here to Rotterdam, for example. Um, I really think it, it, we need it in a country like the Netherlands. Uh, of course, also under the current government, it doesn’t work.
[00:31:29] Susanne: may or may not become harder. We don’t know yet. Um, that being said, most artists that I help have studied here at one of the art schools or design academy, for example. And so they have already a network in the Netherlands, have often already, uh, exhibited in the Netherlands and then manage to stay after their graduation and their orientation year that every graduate gets, uh, when they graduate in the Netherlands to find themselves a job or to establish their business.
[00:32:05] Susanne: So usually these are people that have, studied here already and are keen on staying. And so far, and I think that will remain, uh, in principle, the Netherlands has been quite attractive, uh, uh, for artists because we have great funding. from independent art funds that you can apply for if you are talented enough.
[00:32:30] Susanne: And fortunately, that’s not just restricted to being Dutch or European, but it’s just restricted to if you’re good enough. And, um, that. often makes it, that’s what I hear from the artists, that the Netherlands is such a great place to live because they actually have, yeah, to just be able to live here.
[00:32:53] Susanne: Whereas if you would move to Berlin, it’s maybe cheaper life and there is a lot of artists there, but There’s no funding. So after all, uh, the Netherlands still wins it often from, from cities or countries, uh, like Germany. Yeah.
[00:33:10] Mickelle: Yeah. Makes sense. Um, and I love that you have this, um, Yeah, this special, like you’re, you’re sensing this and I think that’s, I think it drives you a bit.
[00:33:20] Mickelle: Would you say that it drives you to give, give people what they’re passionate about? Yes. So whether that’s staying in the Netherlands, moving to the Netherlands, or as an artist staying in the Netherlands, because that’s especially difficult and you can make it easier. How do you see that? What do you see as a common thread between your clients?
[00:33:41] Mickelle: Because you do work with a pretty specific.
[00:33:43] Susanne: Yeah, I have a, I have a very specific group. Um, I think all my clients are professionals one way or the other. Uh, so they are in that sense, easy to work with. I find, uh, because they are responsive. I am responsive. We just work together and I am a very pragmatic attorney.
[00:34:04] Susanne: So I rather don’t. let things go to court, if not need be. So I’d rather sort it out from the beginning. I can be then also a bit demanding if I feel that there’s more into a case. So I really ask the client to prepare as good as possible. I’m strict. Uh, I’m setting quite tight deadlines. tight deadlines, I get as feedback normally that they like it because they feel guided then.
[00:34:31] Susanne: Um, and yeah, that’s how we usually work together. And that can really be a broad variety of persons and a broad variety of cases, but there is just something to it that That, um, yeah, most of my clients understand it’s difficult. They are not fighting necessarily the fact that it is so difficult, but they will work hard.
[00:34:57] Susanne: So they’re driven.
[00:34:59] Mickelle: Yeah. They’re driven. That’s what they have in common. And you, you’re happy to help them through the process if they can be
[00:35:07] Susanne: driven. That’s. Yeah.
[00:35:10] Mickelle: And so would you say that these people that you work with normally are clear about what they want, which is they want to live in the Netherlands or they want to live?
[00:35:18] Yes.
[00:35:18] Mickelle: Yeah. So they’ve already kind of gone through that process of, um, selection for where they’re going to spend a significant amount of time if they’re, if they’re looking for naturalization or, I mean, I guess you do also help with permits, but there is a certain, there is Something that happens when you decide you want to live somewhere and maybe, maybe a company isn’t giving you enough support or they don’t know how to give you the right kind of support.
[00:35:41] Mickelle: What do you see in that process that, um, maybe you can give us some insights because you see so many people, because I think it’s really special to choose where you’re going to live and then to fight for it.
[00:35:57] Susanne: Yeah. I think it depends on the type of cases the U. S. citizens that I meet in my practice that want to stay here as a self employed business owner just are often looking for a change in life and I feel that in the U.
[00:36:19] Susanne: S., People also tend to move, correct me if I’m wrong, but rather easily between states. So it’s, it’s, it’s, oh yeah, well, let’s move to California or, you know, like maybe it’s not as simple as it is, but I, I feel that, that, Then, all of a sudden, uh, some people think like, well, you know what, uh, I love it here in Houston, but I actually also would like to have a place in Amsterdam.
[00:36:46] Susanne: We visited for 10 days and this is where we want to be. This is often how it gets, uh, it’s, it’s just a very short visit. Uh, of course. not always children involved, because that makes life a little more complicated, or at least you want to make probably a more thorough decision than just a visit of 10 days.
[00:37:08] Yeah. Uh,
[00:37:08] Susanne: but, but yeah, that’s what I often see with us clients that say, get here to the Netherlands or to Amsterdam, that they are just very determined. We visited and we love it here, or we purchased a house here without even checking the residency requirements.
[00:37:26] Susanne: That often happens. And then of course, there’s also a very big group that has studied here already, or has worked here already. And they weren’t necessarily meaning to stay maybe, but then they figure out that they are slowly building their career, and that they’re settling down, and that they really want to stay.
[00:37:50] Susanne: And, um, and, that also their home countries, for example, aren’t as nice anymore as they used to be. So, um, uh, there’s also of course a big group of Russian clients that since the outbreak of the war have not been wanting to return or wanted to escape. So that’s also a huge group. I mean, there’s all, there’s all sorts of changes in the world for people saying also like, well, you know what?
[00:38:18] Susanne: The Netherlands is for us a very safe country, uh, not seeking asylum or claiming refugee status, but just a safe country. Let’s see if I can find myself a job here. Let’s see if I can open a business here. So these are all considerations for people.
[00:38:36] Mickelle: I think people are, at least from my gen, my parents generation, it feels like people want to spend their time in a place that suits them.
[00:38:44] Mickelle: They, they maybe don’t have as much patience for a place if it’s not really giving them the life they need. Want I think they can have and also I’ve noticed that people’s values have changed. I think At least I can only speak from my own point of view, but like when I was growing up, you know, certain things are normal, right?
[00:39:04] Mickelle: Like not taking a vacation or not, uh, whatever, you know, healthcare is a certain way. And then you realize there’s another way to live. Your values change in an instant.
[00:39:13] Yeah.
[00:39:14] Mickelle: And so that I think is happening. around the world. Um, and not just between Europe and the U S, but all around the world, people are moving to places that suit them better.
[00:39:23] Mickelle: Um, and the law and immigration, and like we were saying before, having one country, it seems like the laws are not quite bending to that. Or maybe are there even backlashing against that, that notion?
[00:39:36] Susanne: Yeah.
[00:39:36] Mickelle: Um, is it because it’s so complex or the system is just not set up for it? Or do you think it’s really just a resource thing?
[00:39:45] Susanne: I think it’s, it’s maybe. even more than that. It’s, it’s, I think, still a kind of, like, in general, quite hesitant approach towards immigration, which does not help, uh, in the sense to also people like me. Uh, now I’m saying you, but people who can actually choose where to live because they will find a job. Or they can work online and it doesn’t matter where they live.
[00:40:16] Susanne: Yeah. Yeah. But, but they, and I think after all, if you would ask. each individual voting for the parties that want to restrict immigration and you would just present 10 cases like, do you want this person to stay? This is the situation. Do you want this person to stay? This, this, this. Then it would say, yes, of course, but it’s not reflected in the legislation indeed.
[00:40:42] Susanne: And I honestly, I think it will get worse. Yeah. And so you are right saying that there will be a backlash and that won’t. stimulate, uh, people actually being able to, or maybe it still stimulates them to do this, but it, it will no longer be as easy. I was just considering, uh, just a personal note, like, um, I was in Cornwall in the UK last year on vacation and I thought, oh, it would be so cool.
[00:41:15] Susanne: great. Of course, I can always dream about everything, but it would be so great to have a little cottage here with a, you know, like a vegetable garden and just, you know, live your life partly here. That’s just a random thought. Um, and then I thought, Oh, but I can’t, even if I want to, because I need a residence permit to live in the UK.
[00:41:38] Susanne: And I know more or less their categories. And as long as I’m a Dutch practicing lawyer, No way I will get a residence permit there. It’s just impossible.
[00:41:49] Mickelle: Wow. And isn’t that an amazing thing to realize?
[00:41:52] Susanne: Yeah, in a way, yes, I mean, of course, the same for the U. S. for, for myself, it’s also difficult. So it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, yeah, for us, people that are able to support ourselves probably in one way or the other.
[00:42:13] Susanne: It’s not that the world is an open place. open world in that sense. Um, and that is sometimes difficult to explain to clients as well.
[00:42:25] Mickelle: Yeah, of course it is because you’re, um, you’re, you’re the front lines of this legislation and laws coming out. You’re implementing them and trying to help people. Um, so when And this is another category of people I think that we can speak to.
[00:42:40] Mickelle: I know a lot of people want to, to retire in a country that’s not where they did most of their life, um, for various reasons. Um, and I think that’s on the rise as well. Um, and it sounds like you maybe see that as well with people buying houses and not realizing they can’t move there. Tell me what that, how, the system works for that, because it really is based on your profession, what you can provide to the economy.
[00:43:07] Mickelle: And as a retired person, that’s not always as easy to prove, or is it? No,
[00:43:11] Susanne: no, and we don’t have a scheme for that in the Netherlands. So of course, once you’ve worked here, and hopefully then have secured permanent residence, Because of that, you will be fine also retiring here. There won’t be any issue from that perspective.
[00:43:28] Susanne: I’m just speaking about immigration law, by the way. Yeah, of course. Yeah. Not like social security wise and so forth. But
[00:43:38] Mickelle: remind everyone you’re a lawyer.
[00:43:44] Susanne: If you’ve not worked here and you are retired already, And you are not a U. S. citizen because the U. S. citizens often use, uh, the Dutch American Friendship Treaty, uh, with a simple business consulting or whatsoever. They can get a residence permit for the Netherlands and that’s what is often used by retired U.
[00:44:07] Susanne: S. citizens. But if you’re not one of those, Japanese citizens have a similar option.
[00:44:12] Mickelle: Yeah, which we actually, I’ll just briefly mention, you actually have an interest in Japanese. Yeah. Uh, you have a lot of clients, is that, do I have that right? Yeah.
[00:44:20] Susanne: Yeah. True. Yeah. Yeah. Also. And, um, but it, it goes up and down in terms of their
[00:44:27] Mickelle: interest in coming
[00:44:28] Susanne: to be here.
[00:44:29] Susanne: Um, and I think those who are retired are not often here. So it’s mostly the other. You know, like the U. S. side where, where U. S. citizens retired are.
[00:44:43] Mickelle: It’s mostly just U. S. people that are retiring and moving around the world.
[00:44:46] Susanne: Yeah, no, I’m not sure, but it’s just for others, it’s really hard to get here. So they just cannot.
[00:44:53] Susanne: Uh, and if they have no other link, like being a former Dutch citizen or whatsoever, they just have no immigration category to invoke.
[00:45:04] Mickelle: So it’s just, if you’re a Japanese person, you’ve retired, you’re 55, let’s say, you just, there’s just no possible, there’s just no avenue.
[00:45:13] Susanne: No, they have a similar treaty like the US, so for them it’s possible.
[00:45:18] Susanne: I see. Actually, Bolivia, US, and Japan, all due to all sorts of ancient, uh, friendship treaties. Ah. But the rest is excluded from that. Um. Mm hm. And still that treaty does not give a retirement option, but at least a relatively easy business set up immigration option. So that’s why it’s often used for that as a retired person, just to do some business on the side and be able to live here.
[00:45:49] Susanne: But others, yeah, there’s no immigration category. There used to be a wealthy persons Permit, but there was already I must say when it got introduced back in the days was very sensitive topic They just introduced it because other countries introduced it such as Cyprus, Malta, Spain, Portugal Golden Visa, so to say that’s also of course, especially since the outbreak of the war in Russia Uh, has become a very sensitive topic because Russian citizens, uh, got to Malta, Cyprus, got their European passports very easily and then came to the European Union.
[00:46:32] Susanne: Uh, there was a very political thing, uh, the European commission is also not happy with it. Uh, the Netherlands has now decided to delete this option, this golden visa option from our. Immigration options basically, not that it was often used. Okay. It was really hard to get. Uh, so the, the rules made it so difficult that most.
[00:46:56] Susanne: wealthy persons would pick another country and then would come with a Portuguese passport or whatsoever to the Netherlands. So I think for retired persons, the Netherlands is not so much of an attractive country, unless you’ve already are a permanent resident of the Netherlands, then there’s no issue.
[00:47:16] Susanne: Um, Yeah. I think they mostly go to Portugal, for example, although I think their immigration system, they have been very welcoming and now they are.
[00:47:25] Mickelle: Everyone’s locking it down. Yeah. Yeah. I want to talk to you about this recent, I think it’s recent, um, language change. So I think in the Netherlands it used to be that you could get a permanent residency permit, uh, if you pass your A1 or A2.
[00:47:41] Mickelle: A2. Yeah. A2. A2. And now there’s always a conversation about it going to B2. Or B1?
[00:47:47] Susanne: Yeah, it is for certain categories such as those who are here to stay with a Dutch partner or with a partner with a different nationality than EU nationality unless highly skilled migrants that so that group is out. For a certain group it’s B1 but the rest is still under A2.
[00:48:07] Susanne: It was planned to be B1 for everyone but They just simply couldn’t make it on time to get all the systems in place. The current new government has announced that it will become B1 for everyone. But let’s see, I mean, I think there was already the wish, but it just, they just simply couldn’t get it all together because it would change again from duo to duo.
[00:48:30] Susanne: the local municipality. And I think they weren’t ready for it. So that’s why there’s still difference, but so far it’s still a two if you apply for permanent residence.
[00:48:42] Mickelle: And then, um, do you think, I think that there’s now a requirement for naturalization that I think is new ish after there’s some people around me that are saying, Oh, now I’m required to, to take the naturalization tests.
[00:48:57] Mickelle: You,
[00:48:57] Susanne: you always need to take it. Yeah, so the civic integration exam is required for both, either for permanent residence and for naturalization. So far, you can still, as a former highly skilled migrant or as a Dutch American friendship treaty holder, you can still use the A2, also for naturalization, but indeed they are planning to change it also to B1.
[00:49:20] Susanne: Okay, cool. But then that’s a very important, um, thing to mention too. One of the plans of the current government is to increase the five years set for naturalization to 10 years. Oh
[00:49:34] Mickelle: wow.
[00:49:34] Susanne: Yeah. So that’s going to be a much longer. Uh, so then it would just be first having temporary residents for five years and five years of Permanent residence once you get it and then citizenship if you were interested at all.
[00:49:52] Mickelle: Yeah Yeah, I mean everyone’s interested It’s once you again if you’re like me and I think a lot of people I mean I’ve even heard Dutch people say that they came to Amsterdam and then they’ve just stayed right? It’s it’s a really Beautiful place. Obviously we all love it, but sometimes you don’t plan.
[00:50:10] Mickelle: There’s no strategy going in of how you’re going to stay because you’re not planning to stay. So I think more than one person has come for love or for work or for study and thought, Oh, I can’t leave now. And now they need to figure out their immigration status.
[00:50:26] And I
[00:50:26] Mickelle: guess, I mean, that’s the best way of saying probably where you come in.
[00:50:30] Yeah.
[00:50:31] Mickelle: So when people come to you, I I think they probably are usually asking these questions, right? Like I’ve built a life or I want to come. And I think that, um, it’s interesting that that’s not a life skill that I had. So, uh, and I think that’s why your, your practice is so, um, helpful. So the last thing I want to talk about is, um, the notion of how your practice, um, looks at, um, um, Or you as a lawyer.
[00:51:05] Mickelle: Um, what do you see, like if you had to plan your life as an international person, what would you do over again? Or how would you be strategic? Um, is there, is there a trick that you, or not trick, but like how would you do it if you were to do it again, I guess?
[00:51:22] Susanne: Uh, if I were to do it, I would, and come to the Netherlands, and this is not promoting myself, but I would definitely already start from scratch, or rather quickly after arrival, in case the employers fix it, fixes it all, but really to make sure that I’m fully aware of what my rights are and what I need to do from the very beginning, just to avoid making mistakes in that process, even if I were not.
[00:51:51] Susanne: get planning to stay longer than like two or three years. You never know. And you never know what the changes will be. Of course, there’s information that can be found online in the form of IND website and platforms and, and fora and so forth, but it’s not always
[00:52:10] how
[00:52:10] Susanne: it really is. And we have a very elaborate immigration act and all underlying, you know, like legislation.
[00:52:20] Susanne: Um, I would try to keep myself updated in the first place as much as possible, prepared for certain scenarios, or at least when I feel that something will change, jump in and seek advice and not see it as the last thing you need advice on. Because that is what often happens that, that people already have sorted things out or have made an agreement with their employer.
[00:52:47] Susanne: And then immigration is basically the last bit that they’re looking at. And then all of a sudden, Uh, it becomes really complicated at that point. So, so that is important, I think, to realize, and I would always file for a permit that I could qualify for the soonest. And especially in these times, I think.
[00:53:11] Susanne: It’s better to be safe. Yeah. So just when you meet the conditions or when you’re close to meeting the conditions, of course you still need to take the exam, but not to postpone the exam for ages, but just do it at some point just to get it organized and done with, because then you can focus on other aspects of life.
[00:53:29] Susanne: And there are so many other aspects of life that are important and time consuming. Uh, and I understand how much Comes to you, especially when living in a country that’s not the country where you grew up in, uh, that you also need to get to know, but sometimes it’s, it’s really, yeah, of course, it’s also the lawyer speaking in me, maybe.
[00:53:50] Susanne: No, but I think
[00:53:51] Mickelle: you’re right. I think it’s, it’s wise of you to say, have that person on your team. So we talk a lot about who to have on your team as an international person and having someone like you on your team. Your strategy from the beginning, when you land much like you would maybe an educational specialist, like we had an educational specialist help us find where we should send our children to school.
[00:54:15] Mickelle: And then we just barely hired her again to help us with the middle bar school system. I think what I could say is if you’re considering your team of support, which you actually do need as an international person, having an immigration lawyer on your team. Sooner than later, just so you can navigate things and have choices.
[00:54:32] Mickelle: That’s what I hear you saying is it’s,
[00:54:34] Susanne: yeah,
[00:54:35] Mickelle: it’ll make your life so much more smooth.
[00:54:38] Susanne: I think so. Of course. I mean, employers often provide that kind of service. They should actually, if they hire you as a highly skilled migrant to a certain extent, but at some point, if. If things get too private or, you know, you want to consider changing jobs or things aren’t going as planned with the employer initially, or just make sure to have someone independent, uh, indeed to advise and to make a plan.
[00:55:07] Susanne: And I think that’s what I often do. So I assist people often throughout. I also assist companies, by the way, getting their stuff in. So it’s also the other way around. Um, and then I can’t, uh, assist the private individual necessarily. Uh, but you know, like it is, it is, I think, smart to have someone, uh, to just, uh, Plan things with and to make sure that you qualify for something when, yeah, you may not yet need it, but there may be a situation where you need it.
[00:55:43] Mickelle: Yeah, I can, I can attest to this being important and I am a bad example. Um, and so when the 30 percent ruling changed, we were in a very bad place because it was six months before our five years and we came with an eight year.
[00:55:56] Susanne: Yeah.
[00:55:57] Mickelle: And so we, we really were scrambling and not knowing our options. And it was really, really, um, for at least six months to a year, it was very stressful when it didn’t need to be.
[00:56:07] Mickelle: Like you said, we would have loved to be spending our time doing something else besides changing a lot about our lives to make sure that we wanted to stay and we could stay. And so, um, yeah, it can, things can change in an instant. And like you’re saying, it’s getting more and more turbulent for internationals at the moment right now.
[00:56:26] Mickelle: And so it’s such, such great advice that you, um, that you’ve given us. Um, I would like to say thank you for coming on. I feel like we, we just got so much information. Um, where can people find you, um, if they want to, um, hire you or get advice? Yeah,
[00:56:46] Susanne: best would be through. Uh, the law firm’s website. That’s absolute easiest because my email is the place where I, I, yeah, that I check, you know, on a very regular basis.
[00:56:59] Susanne: Um, the law firm is called Everard Immigration Lawyers. Um, it’s difficult to, we’ll link it below. Yes, that’s most important. And then just send me a direct email and I’ll get back to you. Um, because I think that’s easiest. Of course, I’m on LinkedIn too, but I, uh, email is much easier for me. Perfect.
[00:57:19] Mickelle: And so if this is, if you’re a company, Or an individual who would love to have someone, advice, help them through the process of immigration or staying or.
[00:57:29] Susanne: Yeah. And sometimes it can just be a simple yes or no. Sometimes it can be, well, we can wait a bit with this advice. Uh, and sometimes it will be, okay, let’s schedule a meeting. Uh, it can have all sorts of. Outcomes, but great.
[00:57:47] Mickelle: Great. Well, thank you so much for your time, Susanne Mooji. And, um, yeah, I’m sure we’ll have you on again, if we can ever, um, because you’re a wealth of knowledge.
[00:57:56] Mickelle: And I think I love how you, um, are open to the world and want to bring the world and, and really just help people with what they, where they want to live. I think that’s such a beautiful, um, Uh, guiding light that you have.
[00:58:09] Susanne: Thank you, Mickelle. It was a huge pleasure and I hope till next time.
[00:58:13] Mickelle: Okay, thanks Susanne.
[00:58:15] Mickelle: Okay, that’s it for today. I hope you’ve enjoyed our show. For the latest insights on living internationally, join us at HouseofPeregrine. com to find out how you can connect with our community. Let’s craft our life story with intention together.