Psychedelic Assisted Coaching

[00:01:19] Mickelle: The Matter is an oasis of calm and nature just outside of Amsterdam. Today we are talking to one of the founders of the center, Marieke van der Spek

[00:01:28] Mickelle: Marieke is a psychedelic assisted coach and co founder of The Matter to be a place to come and get to the heart of You guessed it, what matters most. Marieke tells me that using a combination of coaching and psychedelics, she guides her clients to focus on what they deeply desire, which often means letting go of their perceived blocks or what they think they should want based on societal standards.

[00:01:53] Mickelle: She first discovered psychedelics and it became part of her work in 2019. This was after spending time as an expat in Hong Kong and also a stint traveling with Cirque du Soleil. She then found herself back in the Netherlands, a very different person. In addition to the incredible growth and adventure of living abroad, she was also undergoing fertility treatments as part of her process.

[00:02:16] Mickelle: And her decision to not have biological children changed her idea of how her life might turn out. Living outside of the city, surrounded by young families, she no longer felt aligned, so she moved to the city for a fresh start, and her path led to a whole new chapter of her life, which now includes a beautiful retreat center.

[00:02:36] Mickelle: The love of her life and guiding her clients toward their highest potential using her unique combination of coaching her incredible facility filled with nature and psychedelics. I loved this conversation and hope you find it as useful and insightful as I did. If you enjoy this podcast, Please feel free to share it with a friend.

[00:02:59] Mickelle: This is the best way you can get the word out about House of Peregrine. It is our mission to connect people living internationally more deeply with themselves, each other, and the place they currently call home. If you want to know more about memberships for yourself or for your business, please head to our website.

[00:03:19] Mickelle: House of Peregrine.Com. Our memberships give you access to the House of Peregrine ecosystem, which is full of amazing people, great events, collaborations, and also exclusive products and services, all of which will make your life abroad, full of connection, luxury, and personal growth. Okay, on to today’s episode.

[00:03:42] Mickelle: Marieke, thank you so much for joining us today on the House of Peregrine podcast. I am incredibly excited for everyone to meet you and hear your story. Would you please start out by introducing yourself?

[00:03:57] Marieke: Sure. Well, first of all, thank you for having me. Thank you for the invitation. Really happy with that.

[00:04:02] Marieke: So my name is Marieke van der Spek, 54 years old. I’m living in the Netherlands. I was born and raised in the Netherlands and I work as a psychedelic assisted coach and I have a business together with my partner, Eric. And I can tell you much more, but I’ll tell you more later.

[00:04:22] Mickelle: The company is called The Matter.

[00:04:24] Mickelle: Is that right?

[00:04:25] Marieke: That’s right. Yeah, it’s called the matter because we really like to focus on what really matters. And so out of that, the, the name for the, for the business came out.

[00:04:35] Mickelle: And just how do you describe

[00:04:36] Marieke: the matter? How do you introduce the matter? So the matter is, it’s a psychedelic retreat location.

[00:04:43] Marieke: And we offer psychedelic coaching programs, and we do this individually or in groups, and we focus on personal development. So we want to offer people a place where they can connect with their true self again. And but also to find peace in their mind and connect with nature because we’re in a really green area in the middle of the Netherlands.

[00:05:11] Marieke: So this is how I usually introduce it to people. And it’s a place where people can feel really comfortable and safe. So there’s, there’s lots of comfort, you know, nice materials, nice designs to really feel good.

[00:05:27] Mickelle: Yeah, it’s beautiful. It’s really beautiful. And so first though, Where, tell us a little bit about your, who you are, where did you grow up, how did you grow up?

[00:05:37] Mickelle: What made, what made Marieke?

[00:05:39] Marieke: Okay, so I was born in the Netherlands and raised also in the Netherlands. I have a bit of an Indonesian background, so my grandmother was half Indonesian. And I grew up in a little village and, but most of the time lived my life in big cities. And I studied in Rotterdam. I worked in so I studied HR.

[00:06:03] Marieke: Maybe I should tell you that. And yeah, I re I was raised in a family. I have a brother and a sister and my parents are both Dutch, but yeah. And at a certain point I started to. To I decided to study HR did that in Rotterdam. And then my, my first job was with the circus. So I ran off with the circuit.

[00:06:22] Marieke: Basically I worked with for six to life for three years. I toured with them. And that was, I think the best start of my career because I, I got to see so many people, so many different cultures we, we traveled around. And so for me, I think from the beginning already, even before I studied, I lived and worked in as an au pair in, in the U S so for me, it’s always about being connected with different cultures.

[00:06:51] Marieke: So I like to travel, but. I also really liked it to work and live abroad. And so after the circus, I worked After the circus.

[00:07:02] Mickelle: After you ran

[00:07:02] Marieke: away with the circus, where do you go from there? Yeah, I went to I, so I started where I, I came back to the Netherlands because I sort of missed it. Because, you know, I was living in for three years when I was with the circus.

[00:07:14] Marieke: I lived in hotels for three years. And every time we went to a different country or city, but, you know, after a while, I thought I want to go back to the Netherlands because it felt more like home. And I started working for corporates in HR positions. And so I worked for big companies like group Danone and Adidas group.

[00:07:36] Marieke: I got married at a certain point and my ex was got a how do you say that was, was on a, sent on an assignment to Hong Kong. And I joined him. And I was like, let’s go, let’s, let’s do this. And I, I knew that living abroad was a nice thing for me, but he didn’t have that experience yet.

[00:07:57] Marieke: So we moved there and it was a wonderful time. It was like really an adventure. And in the beginning I didn’t work. And then at a certain point I started working for Adidas group again. And It was a really nice adventure. Unfortunately, it didn’t last that long. So we only stayed there for two years.

[00:08:16] Mickelle: And during that time, I want to talk to you about, at this time, this is a big transition for you. So you were in Hong Kong doing like really going at it in your career, living abroad with your partner while he was on assignment. And you guys decided, and, and I asked you if this was okay before, but you guys decided that maybe you would want to start a family.

[00:08:38] Marieke: Yes so before we left, With children,

[00:08:41] Mickelle: I should say. You were a family already, but with children, yes.

[00:08:44] Marieke: Yes, so just before we left, we, we went into the cycle of, of trying, and, and we got some support medical support, and we continued that. Journey in Hong Kong.

[00:08:58] Mickelle: And what was that like doing medical treatments for, we, I would say infertility, would you call it infertility?

[00:09:06] Mickelle: Like doing medical treatments for infertility in a country that you don’t know the language or the people as well as your own? What was that like?

[00:09:15] Marieke: You know, I was really open to everything and I had the feeling that in Hong Kong things Even on a higher level than in the Netherlands. So I was fine with it.

[00:09:26] Marieke: I went also for acupuncture and this lady, she spoke Dutch as well. So that was a really big help. I think I just went for it. And I mean, it’s been already a couple of years ago, but I was completely open to it and, and I think in general, that really helped me making living abroad A really nice experience in general,

[00:09:48] Mickelle: just being open,

[00:09:49] Marieke: yeah, being open.

[00:09:51] Marieke: And and of course I had also tough times, you know, also with these medical treatments, because, you know, also in Hong Kong, when, when, when you work there, it’s like work all the time. And there’s a huge focus on. On being productive at work or being present at work. And I didn’t, I didn’t really dare to talk about it, that I was also in, in this process, in the, in these medical treatments.

[00:10:14] Marieke: So I just kept that for myself. So that I think that was pretty difficult because I had like expat women around me that I can talk to. So I, I got a lot of understanding from that part. I could talk to my family through zoom or, so that was all fine. But I think the work part, I thought that was pretty difficult because yeah, that standard was so high.

[00:10:39] Marieke: So I would, for example, have a medical treatment in the morning in a private clinic and very high quality and everything. So perfectly fine. But I would go back to, To work in the afternoon and wouldn’t say a word to anybody else.

[00:10:55] Mickelle: That’s harrowing.

[00:10:56] Marieke: Like it’s, yeah. And, and it was a bit strange because, you know, I, I went under, I don’t know the word, narcosis.

[00:11:05] Marieke: So I had that treatment while I was. Not there. It’s like a narcosis or something. I don’t know exactly the right word, but anyway, so I felt kind of like dizzy and not completely there. Looking back, I would do that totally different because I think I was giving my work much more attention and focus than being present in doing my best for my own health and, and, and being able to, Yeah, to, to get a positive result out of that treatment.

[00:11:36] Marieke: So looking back, I, I would do that differently. And maybe if I would have been in the Netherlands, it will be different. I don’t know.

[00:11:44] Mickelle: Yeah, the culture is much different around work here.

[00:11:47] Marieke: Yeah.

[00:11:48] Mickelle: But I wonder. So I felt this bind in my, in my younger working life where I was in the middle of proving myself at the same time in the middle of trying to have, have a child.

[00:12:00] Mickelle: And so I have, I was trying to get pregnant while in the, in the movie business. So I, I always tell the story that I was working for Danny Boyle. while trying to pretend like I wasn’t pregnant because I didn’t want to get fired or lose the position. And so I think that your story is very common that we’re all just trying to live multiple lives at once.

[00:12:23] Mickelle: But having, being in an international environment, is another stress, I think, or not, and it’s both stress good and bad, but it’s just fast paced in some, in some ways, and especially in Hong Kong, I think.

[00:12:37] Marieke: It felt like for me sort of like adjusting, constantly adjusting. To certain standards, to the local standards, to business, to how do you interact with women that you don’t know so well, instead of your friends that you know from, from childhood.

[00:12:56] Marieke: So I think it’s constantly sort of. Finding a way of moving around and dealing with things and, and, and this like dealing with things sounds small. This was big, but yeah, I, I, I went open minded in it and, and I felt really very much supported by the medical clinics people, professionals around me.

[00:13:21] Marieke: But work wise, it was difficult. Yeah.

[00:13:23] Mickelle: Yeah, that makes sense. And that culture difference is a big deal. And then when you’re, yeah, there’s just so many layers to being an international person. There’s so many layers to going through infertility treatments, and there’s many layers to being someone who’s there for your partners.

[00:13:39] Mickelle: assignment. And so those are all very complex things. So sometimes it feels like there’s no grounding to this experience. And sometimes that’s great because it’s exciting, but sometimes it can have, have other, it’s, it’s just a way of life. It seems to me sometimes.

[00:13:52] Marieke: Yeah, absolutely. And it has, and maybe that’s also in general in life.

[00:13:57] Marieke: I mean, it has good things and not so good things. But yeah, I, I’m looking back. I, I mean, I really had a great time in Hong Kong. Even That part was maybe not successful because the treatment didn’t work out. And at a certain point we decided to, to just leave it there. Also at, at a certain point we had like this abrupt end of the assignment of my my ex.

[00:14:24] Marieke: And that was also difficult decision because I was really happy in my job. Doing really good, really happy, just on a roll. It was an international position and I really enjoyed it. And then he was sent back basically. And and then I had to decide, okay, what am I going to do? So I decided to quit my job and to go back to the Netherlands.

[00:14:49] Marieke: And that transition was, wasn’t that easy. I mean, we moved back to our house that we bought with the expectation of creating a bigger family. So all our neighbors were like, or pregnant or other children moved in or were born or new families moved in. So that was not so easy. And I, I was. Sort of also disappointed like, Hey, I was really happy with this adventure and now we’re moving back.

[00:15:17] Marieke: So that was kind of a transition. And I also decided, I mean, at a certain point we decided, okay, we are not going to continue this, this process, this medical process anymore. And I decided to check in with a therapist because I thought I really want to give this a place and to be able to move on. So that’s, that’s what I did.

[00:15:41] Mickelle: So you’re moving

[00:15:41] Mickelle: on from the chapter of where you thought you would be a mother this way to not, to closing that chapter. And so that’s, that was a moment where you thought, I need to close this in a healthy way and have some help with that. Yeah, that’s beautiful.

[00:15:57] Marieke: Yeah, I think looking back at it really was helpful.

[00:16:01] Marieke: And so at I think, you know, I it was okay. I mean, we, we, at that point looked at other places, maybe moving to the city center or, you know, to, to be in a different environment. But at a certain point, I thought it’s okay. I went back to Adidas group again, and I focused on work completely. And I thought I think it was first group Danone and then back to Adidas again.

[00:16:25] Marieke: And so I worked also abroad. I spent a lot of time in Germany and But at that point, I also realized that in my relationship with my ex we, we grew apart and because I probably because of the changes, but yeah, at a certain point we grew apart and we decided to, to divorce. I was living at that time in Rotterdam and but I was working in Amsterdam and and I decided, you know, I need change and a big change.

[00:16:57] Marieke: So I grew my hair and I moved to Amsterdam. Two days later, I moved to a nice apartment and in the middle of the city and I thought, okay, let’s, let’s start this new chapter. And so I did, yeah, it was I also thought, okay, maybe I need a new job as well. Even looked at a job position in Boston for Adidas and or Reebok and but decided no, I, I, I just moved to Amsterdam.

[00:17:24] Marieke: I need to explore the city and I think it would be helpful to have some people around me that, that know me and I know where I can feel comfortable with because I was going through grief. And but I was, yeah, it, so it took quite some time, it took a couple of months. I was really sad while I was really happy with Amsterdam, but I was going through grief and, and at a certain point I thought after I think three, four months, I thought, okay, now it’s enough.

[00:17:54] Marieke: I’m going to start. I want to have a nice summer and it was, I think, June, July. No, it was July. I’m going to have a nice summer. So I signed up for a speed date and I thought, well, why not? I’m going to have some fun this summer. And and I met Eric and I spoke for him, spoke to him for four minutes and we had a really nice click.

[00:18:16] Marieke: And And now we’re together like for nine years. Yeah, it was really, really funny. I, I had something like, okay, I guess this is supposed to go like this. I was a bit careful in the beginning because I just got out of a divorce, but there was yeah, there was no no stopping. And so yeah, I got really in love with him and At that point, I also started think like, okay, you know, new life.

[00:18:42] Marieke: I want to do things differently. I want to take, I want to have some more adventure in my life. And so I wanted, I, I always wanted to go for coaching. And so I did a coaching training.

[00:18:55] Mickelle: Cause you’re working in HR. That was your expertise. And so, but at that point you were working kind of in corporates a little bit more.

[00:19:02] Mickelle: You were kind of all about your job. And, you know, to move on to this new chapter. And so I just want to ask you, like, what was your impulse to get into HR in the first place? Like when you started that as your career, where do you think that came from?

[00:19:16] Marieke: I did all sorts of things before I moved into HR or before I did a study into HR, I did all sorts of things.

[00:19:23] Marieke: And I thought, okay, at certain point, is this going to make me happy? And at a certain point I went to be an au pair in the U S. And this. woman where I was working for, she triggered something in me. And I thought, she, she sort of helped me to say, Hey, you know, you need to go back to school and do something with your life.

[00:19:44] Marieke: And so I did. And, and I really always feel really nicely connected with people. And I thought, well, let’s, let’s try this and let’s do this. And. I think from the beginning, I really enjoyed it. And also work wise you know, you always need to wait and see if it really is something for you.

[00:20:01] Mickelle: Yeah.

[00:20:01] Marieke: Well, my first job was with Cirque du Soleil.

[00:20:04] Mickelle: So the first job you had, you ran away with the circus, which may have been the perfect combination for that point in your life. Adventure plus, you know, helping people on their career path.

[00:20:15] Marieke: Yeah. And I mean, it was, that was a really funny time because it was with like a hundred artists. Out of all different countries and a lot of people, I mean, we were all young, having fun traveling around.

[00:20:29] Marieke: It was a huge success. And so it w it was fun.

[00:20:33] Mickelle: Yeah. I’m sure it was magical. So So we find you in your apartment in Amsterdam meeting Eric, and you’re feeling a little bit of of a pull towards maybe arranging your life differently work wise as well.

[00:20:50] Marieke: So maybe good to know is that when I was working in Adidas, it was.

[00:20:55] Marieke: It was really interesting. It was, but it was also, and it was European. So I was spending a lot of time in Germany and I felt like, you know, this is the best place to be. But at certain point I was a little bit like, you know, all corporate and reworks and bonus structures and, and, and salary rounds. And at certain point I sort of felt like, especially when there was a rework that’s when somebody needed to.

[00:21:20] Marieke: Move out of the company and do something else. I always sort of wondered like, what are you going to do next? And, and I also saw like, okay, you’re losing your job, but it could also be some sort of cross point in your life. Like, okay, this is happening to you. What are you going to do with this opportunity?

[00:21:40] Marieke: And, and I always felt like, okay, I need to do arrange everything, but I really would like to know what’s happening afterwards with this person. And so I was sort of started thinking about doing coaching. And so I, I did the international coaching training and I thought, well, maybe because I was sort of still hanging on to the safety of having a, A corporate job and, you know, sort of status also, Oh, you know, I could always say to people I work for Adidas.

[00:22:08] Mickelle: That matters, right? We take on, we take on those identities with who, what we do for our work. And that’s, those are hard to shake.

[00:22:18] Marieke: Yeah, it was like, yeah, am I going to take off my Adidas shoes or, you know, I felt, it felt kind of uncomfortable, but I also knew like, Hey, I believe, or I feel that there’s something else for me.

[00:22:31] Marieke: There’s more to it. And So I went for coaching. First, I thought I’ll stay within Adidas, but at a certain point there was a reorg. And the funny thing is, I just put a bracelet on just before that conversation, because that was a part of my coaching training to sort of like, challenge yourself, stepping out of your comfort zone.

[00:22:50] Marieke: And so I did this bracelet on my wrist to say, to, to have some more attention on adventure in my life. And so I put this bracelet on, I step into this meeting with my manager and he’s saying, he’s telling me like, Hey, there’s going to be a re rework and your position is going to be redundant. And I look at him and I’m like, Oh, really?

[00:23:13] Marieke: And I thought, yeah, because it made me really happy. I thought, okay, this is some, you know, I, I’m going to move on. So this is the time to move on. And so I stepped into So I just skip a part, but I, I started my own business and I was like completely over the moon and oh, I’m going to start this nice coaching business and was dreaming.

[00:23:36] Marieke: And in the meantime, really in love with Eric and and he was living in Culemborg already and I was still happy in Amsterdam. I bought my own apartment just before I left Adidas. Even bought another apartment because I thought, why not? And so I was taking all these risks because I thought, let’s, let’s do this.

[00:23:54] Marieke: Let’s try.

[00:23:55] Mickelle: When you were building your life after, You know, after the transition away from your first marriage, then it was like you were rebuilding. Like, I, I think that’s so beautiful actually. So you have these chapters where, so you’re building, you’re kind of in your building phase.

[00:24:12] Marieke: Yeah, I was absolutely, or I should say I still am.

[00:24:16] Mickelle: Yeah, of course. You never leave it, but that, that must have been really important for you.

[00:24:21] Marieke: Yes, it felt like, okay, I lived a certain life, you know, it was a very comfortable life and I was really happy with my ex at that point. And we were thinking about kids and, and all this sort of stuff, but I thought, okay, I, I get a new chance of doing it differently.

[00:24:39] Marieke: And I know this part already. Try something else. And I really started to feel like, Hey, but you can rebuild your life or you can do things differently. You don’t need to stick to what you always believe is right.

[00:24:58] Mickelle: Or the version of your life that you, that you started now has now, Taking a turn and you can do it differently.

[00:25:05] Mickelle: And so that, what was the moment? Was there a moment? Was that the moment when you had the bracelet and the job went away? Was that the moment? I think the moment

[00:25:15] Marieke: started a little bit before. Yeah. I think it started maybe already met with. deciding to go for a divorce and move to Amsterdam. I think it started there, but I think that was the actual decision.

[00:25:30] Marieke: And afterwards, you know, I was making decisions. And so maybe it started also with that coaching training and thinking, okay, let’s, and meeting Eric. And, and so yeah, I think it started there and yeah,

[00:25:44] Mickelle: at some point. You, you began, I don’t know how you, I, everyone says this differently, but you began collaborating with psychedelics.

[00:25:54] Mickelle: Is that a way to put it? Tell us, tell us how that began. You were in your training for, were you in your training still? And

[00:26:03] Marieke: no, I was out of my coaching training. So I started my own business and I was sort of searching. And so I thought I’m going to do coaching people from, you know, within business organizations, and I was focusing on personal leadership and I thought, okay, I want to focus on management and, or executives and I was trying really hard and then I said, okay, let’s go for team development as well, because I have experience in that as well.

[00:26:31] Marieke: And it was constantly out of my comfort zone. So I, I felt also challenged, like, okay, can I do this? And this is new for me. And so I, I, I went into that. But I always felt like it was a bit of a search. And then at a certain point so I worked with somebody together, then I moved to an a training company, Mindwork Productions, really, you know, it was like, if I want to work for a company, in training, then that’s one.

[00:26:59] Marieke: So I got this, all these opportunities, but I still felt a little bit like uncertain. And and Eric, he decided to go for a psychedelic journey. So this is and 2019, and he decided to go for a psychedelic journey and he came back like, oh, Like Impressed and quiet and amazed. And I thought, okay I would like to try that as well.

[00:27:27] Marieke: And so I did, and I had this first experience that really opened a lot for me. I mean, it gave me the opportunity to sort of make a journey through my life, what I experienced already so far. But I also got a sort of a look and feel of what else is possible. For myself. And, but I also got sort of a sense, like, what else is possible for people that I coach if I include psychedelics.

[00:27:56] Marieke: So this was already my first journey. And so I came out of it and I was like, I need,

[00:28:01] Mickelle: we should say that’s not normal for a first journey. I don’t know what you say.

[00:28:05] Marieke: Is that normal? Well, maybe not, but it was a, it was a huge one. And I was like, Okay. I, you know, I need to know more of this. I want to try more and Eric had the same.

[00:28:15] Marieke: So, you know, we’re both really curious and, and really like to learn. So we went for it and, and I slowly started to think about, I need to implement this in my coaching because. I saw with people, they really want to change, but find it so difficult when you just talk about it. And this went much deeper.

[00:28:36] Marieke: And I was like, okay, but I was also a bit scared to do so, because I thought I have this hell on LinkedIn and I have this sort of, Image that I build in, you know, with corporates and I know, and I know personal leadership and team development

[00:28:54] Mickelle: and psychedelics is kind of having a moment now, but it wasn’t yet quite in the mainstream.

[00:28:59] Mickelle: So I was really scared.

[00:28:59] Marieke: Am I going to talk about this? And maybe, you know, what are other people going to think of this? But, you know, this. is also something like a saboteur in me that says, you know, what, what are other people going to say about this? Or, you know, what do they think about you now? And isn’t that strange?

[00:29:18] Marieke: And those kinds of things. And but I also felt so strongly that I needed to do this. This is something I completely believe in. And I, I, You know, I, this feels so right. So I started slowly to, to talk about it first with microdosing and then I went further and what I saw was that there’s, there are already a lot of people who are offering this and who are doing this.

[00:29:45] Marieke: But for, I have the feeling often a specific group of people know to find that area or I knew that already for a very long time, but there’s this huge other area of people. And especially, I think people who are working in corporates and who don’t know anything about this and would like to. Try this but find it scary or they really look for a sort of a place that fits with them or feels right for them.

[00:30:15] Marieke: You know, with comfort it’s like if we’re going on a holiday, not everybody goes to a youth hostel or to a simple hotel. Some people want a little bit more. So I thought I’m going to focus on that and really on helping you. People to make that change, but then with the help of psychedelics and

[00:30:36] Mickelle: yeah.

[00:30:36] Mickelle: And tell us that process. So when you’re coaching someone, tell us what the difference is, like maybe explain it in a way if no, you and I both have a little bit of, I have a little bit, you have a lot of experience with this, but I want you to really walk us through what The change, how that affects change in an individual.

[00:30:57] Marieke: So what happens is when, well, first of all, I talk to people before they start this psychedelic journey. So it’s like a process and it starts with somebody thinking, you know, maybe I’m interested in this or starts to read about it. And then

[00:31:14] Mickelle: And so they might be thinking, oh, I’ve tried to make changes or I want a really powerful change.

[00:31:20] Mickelle: And it’s just not, I can’t access it. I can’t.

[00:31:23] Marieke: It could be different. It could be somebody’s just curious on one side. And the other one is that somebody’s feeling, I need to make a change, or I need to make a decision, or I’m living a life that needs direction or need, there needs to be a change. And I, and, and people usually say, I find it difficult to do it by talking, you know, it’s, it’s not working.

[00:31:48] Marieke: I’m, I’m, I’m having difficulties or so

[00:31:53] Mickelle: like talk therapy is not helping or just, Coaching is not, and helping is probably not the right word. It’s not getting them to where they want to be perhaps. Okay. And so when they come to you, they start a process where they’re using both modalities in a way.

[00:32:10] Marieke: Yeah. So is that correct? I, I, I, I start with the conversation and we start with coaching and to sort of explore, like, what’s the topic where, where are you looking at or what do you want to get out of it? What’s blocking you at the moment? What happened in the past, all that sort of thing. So we start talking about it, like finding what’s blocking, but even more important what somebody’s aiming for or what somebody wants to change or so to look over that blockage.

[00:32:42] Marieke: Because most of the time, what I see is that people are focusing so much on what’s blocking them that they totally forget to, to think about, like, what do you want to where do you want to go to, or. What would you like? And so this is sort of what we discussed before the session. And then let’s say somebody goes into one on one coaching program, then somebody comes here and we, we make sure before that we meet and that we get to know each other a bit better.

[00:33:13] Marieke: prior to the journey. But so when somebody gets here, I show them around. We, you know, we have lots of nature around us.

[00:33:20] Mickelle: It’s beautiful. We’ll, we’ll put the link, but the place is beautiful. So you’re in the middle of an oasis of nature. It’s

[00:33:27] Marieke: like a green, very green at the moment. But. And then somebody, our guests will, will stay in a nice apartment and we talk a little bit more, like, is there any change or, you know, is there anything what happened in the meantime or whatsoever that somebody feels really calm and safe?

[00:33:45] Marieke: So that was also the aim of what we built is that when somebody walks in things, okay, I feel safe here. It feels good. There’s like good energy. And and then, At a certain point,

[00:33:58] Mickelle: We start and there’s research around this, right? Like if I’m not mistaken, sorry to interrupt, but they, there’s research that if, if somebody feels safe, they journey differently so that all the systems of the body are important to consider.

[00:34:12] Marieke: Absolutely. Yeah. And I mean, they, they always talk about two things and it’s set in setting and the set is referring to. The mindset. So if somebody feels prepared I give tips prior, I give them even tips to, to read books, but also to take some extra rest, eat healthy. That somebody really gets the feeling like I’m going to do something special.

[00:34:35] Marieke: And that’s special. I would see as you’re going to meet yourself and that in, in, in all different ranges, but especially like if there’s a specific topic that you’re part that you want to look at for yourself, then prepare yourself for it. So that’s the set. And the setting is really about feeling safe.

[00:34:55] Marieke: So if somebody somebody needs to have a good connection with me, needs to like I said earlier, feel safe, but also rested and, and, and yeah, sort of ready to let go of control because that’s, The whole thing.

[00:35:11] Mickelle: Yeah. And, and when you say you’re getting ready to meet yourself, people rate this as a peak life experience.

[00:35:17] Mickelle: Like these types of journeys are like peak, like life experiences, you know? And so it really is, I think you’re preparing people for something that’s that usually people find very special.

[00:35:31] Marieke: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:35:32] Mickelle: And within that journey. When we say you meet yourself, that’s rather vague, and it can mean something different for everybody, but what is, not to get into it too much, but I want to just give a little bit of a notion, what is happening in the brain and body when, when we’re journeying?

[00:35:49] Mickelle: And is this, when you guys are doing this, is this more of like a large, this is a larger dose. So people are laying down for. Yeah. five to eight hours. Is that right? And they’re kind of in their own space and you’re there. What is happening to them in that time?

[00:36:06] Marieke: Okay. So what’s happening is that maybe first to explain what’s happening in the brain is that when you take psilocybin, And you drink it through a tea.

[00:36:17] Marieke: So you have magic truffles and we make a tea out of that. And when you drink the the truffle tea, then at a certain point, you feel that the psilocybin is starting to work. And what happens in your brain is that your default mode network. And I, I would say, you know, your automatic pilot where all your automatic thoughts and patterns and, you know, how you make decisions, all these kind of Connections in your brain is becoming less active.

[00:36:47] Marieke: So, your body continues working but all those thoughts become less active. And the psilocybin is activating certain parts in your brain that are connected to learning, dreaming, feeling, sensing. And so what’s happening is that you’re going to walk a new, let’s say, pathway in your brain. And what also happens is that you get like, it’s like you’re taking sort of a step back from out of yourself and you can, Look at how you usually do things or how you usually take action or how you behave or, so it’s like you’re shining a new light and taking a new perspective or, or looking at it from a different corner.

[00:37:30] Marieke: And so that gives a lot of clarity in your brain. It also, what also happens is that, and that’s more in the experience is that all the clutter or all the. you know, all the things that you have on your mind in daily life is sort of your, it’s like your mind is becoming quiet. So what happened?

[00:37:51] Mickelle: We tend to stay in our brain most of the time in our, our world.

[00:37:55] Mickelle: So, so that’s an actual, so it’s like saying like, take, Just take a break for a second and let’s explore what else is inside.

[00:38:02] Marieke: And, and the first part of the journey is letting go of control. So, you know, it needs, you need to, even if you never experienced it before, I mean, it’s, so it’s a new experience because you don’t know really how it works, but we, we motivate people to sort of focus on their breathing.

[00:38:21] Marieke: It’s like you’re doing a meditation and focus completely on yourself. And then let go of the control and sort of step in that experience. And, and, and it’s in waves and you, you said it already, it takes around four to five hours. It depends a little bit on the dose, but. And you go in, in different waves, so it becomes at a certain point really strong and then it takes off again and it gives you an opportunity to, to look at different elements in your life in, you’ll be able to that’s, I’m doing this, but you’re moving to the whole area where you are feeling.

[00:38:57] Marieke: And so,

[00:38:59] Mickelle: so you’re going from your thinking part to your feeling part, absolutely. Yeah. Which we know drives more of our actual actions and decisions more than we ever would like to admit maybe sometimes. But yeah, so then when this is, so when this is in together with coaching and with this, what are the things that we can accomplish with this?

[00:39:21] Mickelle: And so this experience. Is usually really, like I said, a peak experience. Most people describe it as one of the most, you know, impactful experiences of their lives. So when they come back and then we, after a few days or weeks, you start to integrate that into the coaching, how does that help facilitate?

[00:39:42] Mickelle: Where, where do we. How do those two work together?

[00:39:45] Marieke: Okay. Well, you know, sometimes, because before, like I said, we have a coaching session before and we look at, okay, what do you wanna get out of this? And that is going to be the intention of the journey as well. Sometimes during the journey I’ll ask people questions about it.

[00:40:00] Marieke: I, I try to less is possible to interfere, but sometimes when we have possibility to connect or to talk. We can sort of steer also the journey towards what somebody wants to look at. And so, like I said, you get these perspectives you get people tend to, to focus very much on what’s blocking their growth.

[00:40:21] Marieke: And what I do is I invite them to look beyond and look like, okay, what is possible? So what’s possible is that they are able to, to get a look and feel already of what they really want in their life or what they really would like to change. Or so it’s already sort of like you experiencing it almost. And, and I want to make sure that people really remember that part.

[00:40:51] Marieke: It could also be that they will experience certain emotions that’s that are stored somewhere in their body and that needs to be released. So that could be, and it could be nice and it could be challenging. I mean, Those two sides are part of it, because what I also tell people is that, you know, it’s like a whole range of emotions and they’re all part of you.

[00:41:15] Marieke: And being able to experience that makes it after the journey. So I get to that point after the journey to, first of all, I think, you know, doing a psychedelic journey, most important is that you. can trust yourself that you can do this. And and so it’s also overcoming certain maybe fears or letting go of control that could already help you to take certain steps in your life because, you know, you did this.

[00:41:49] Mickelle: And I’d like to say like something that instead of, so there’s letting go of control, but the other part, the other side of that, for me, at least was trusting your breath. So, I focused more on trusting myself instead of letting go of control because letting go of control was such a, like a loaded term for women, like it’s all about control.

[00:42:09] Mickelle: So I, when they reframed it or they gave it to me in like, just trust your breath, that was, I always had that, you always have your breath and that it’s really beautiful and actually useful when you come out of a journal journey is this trust your breath. You always have that no matter what. And that’s, that’s super nice.

[00:42:30] Mickelle: And so when they come out and you continue the, their coaching, how, what, what do you have to work with? Like, what is the, what are the possibilities then? Do you feel like they’re just more able to explore more or see again, past the, past the blocks?

[00:42:50] Marieke: What I see is that people get insights. during the journey and they will be able to remember that afterwards as well.

[00:42:58] Marieke: I mean, you won’t be able to remember everything and, and, but that’s okay. You don’t need to really remember everything. And sometimes people even find it difficult to put words to it, but I think most important is that that you feel or that you sort of recognize certain feelings that you feel like, okay, I can do this, or actually I get a I have a better idea or moving into a certain direction, or I’m going to take that decision because things become more clear.

[00:43:30] Marieke: You know, all the clutter, like I said, all the noise. is gone during a journey like that. So you’ll be able to connect so much better with your, yeah, with your conscious being, or, you know, your, you become so much more conscious of what’s really important to you. And based on that, so that’s also what we do in, in, in the coaching afterwards.

[00:43:52] Marieke: So right after the journey, we have a conversation you know, people stay here overnight because. I want them to also have the space to give themselves to sort of let all the, you know, let the whole experience sort of sink in and it’s quiet and, and, you know, people can connect with nature. But then the next morning we have breakfast together and we already have this first conversation like, Hey, how do you look back or what’s really important?

[00:44:20] Marieke: And, and one of the biggest questions I, I always ask is, What do you want to focus on in the next coming two weeks? Because you’re still completely open very sensitive for a lot of things, but also very, Much connected with yourself. And it’s so, there’s so much clarity that it’s really nice to continue straight away with, okay, what do you want to do this these coming two weeks?

[00:44:48] Marieke: And people take that with them in, in sometimes I also ask people to write a note to themselves and I will send it to them later. Something that really is really important to, to remind themselves on.

[00:45:02] Mickelle: And

[00:45:02] Marieke: then.

[00:45:02] Mickelle: Because you’re really, you’re building new pathways, right? So, so after the glow wears off, it’s really nice to have that reminder because it gives you another boost.

[00:45:11] Mickelle: And what I found is it gives you, when you have those little glimmers, like those little things, then it can bring you back into that part of the journey or it comes up. And then you might make, again, slightly small decisions, but they’re in a new,

[00:45:25] Marieke: Yeah, so what happens, like I said earlier when I was explaining what’s happening in the brain is that so you walk that new pathway during the journey and it could feel really good, but if you afterwards, you need to continue walking that pathway again, because otherwise you go back immediately.

[00:45:44] Marieke: to the really strongly paved pathways.

[00:45:48] Mickelle: Yeah. It’s nice. It makes sense to everybody. You make sense to everybody on that path. So it’s much easier to go on that one. And it’s usually, it’s not usually drastically different, but it, Would you say like, it’s not like your personality changes or something, but it really does feel like it’s the small steps Yeah, get you to a new place.

[00:46:09] Mickelle: Yeah, that’s how I would describe it. At least is that match your experience with coaching? And it’s not

[00:46:14] Marieke: like people are going driving home and say, okay now, you know I’m going to quit everything and I’m going to do it completely different But especially because you need to maintain that new path yourself So if you really want to make that change, then you can focus on it because you know, you already sort of cleared the way, but you need to continue it.

[00:46:37] Marieke: And yeah, so

[00:46:39] Mickelle: that’s where the coaching, that’s where the coaching support is. And I also see

[00:46:43] Marieke: like some people need a lot of support in that and others are, they feel so strongly about it that they don’t need that much support. I always sent the playlist. So the music that I play that is for everyone different.

[00:46:58] Marieke: So I send it to them afterwards so they can play them. They can play the music again that they heard during the journey. And that really supports as well, the whole process of integrating. So after the, after the journey, what people are doing is that they get. Lots of insights they give and then I think people should take some time to, to integrate that the music can help, but also slowing down being in nature, taking really good care of themselves because that connection is still so strong taking time for themselves.

[00:47:30] Marieke: and especially give attention to the things they want to change. I mean, if, if a lot of things are good, then, you know, keep it that way. And that’s what people do as well. But it’s definitely helping them in making that change. Yeah.

[00:47:45] Mickelle: And what do you see? What do you see most often? Let’s say someone, let’s give an example, a concrete example.

[00:47:52] Mickelle: Do you have an example of someone who wanted to change something? And the funny thing is. And this is, I want you to, I’m asking you this. It seems to me that the small things affect the big things, but we can’t always see the small things or at least know what really can, can make a difference. And so is that, give us an example of like a goal someone had and then they were able to kind of navigate to that through the coaching process.

[00:48:20] Marieke: I had some people who. Like, like one woman, she was in a job in a, in a, I wouldn’t say corporate, but she was, you know, in working in a, in a business, in a company, and she wanted to feel more freedom in her life and so after. It was a process. So after a few journeys, I think two, two journeys or three journeys, she decided to start her own business, to quit her job and to live a much more flexible life.

[00:48:51] Marieke: And so this was a big thing, you know, to quit her job. But so that’s the big example. And she’s like traveling now when she wants working. remote when she wants. She has like different jobs because freedom was such an important thing for her that she this really helped her to trust herself and to feel that she will be fine.

[00:49:14] Marieke: She will manage. And.

[00:49:16] Mickelle: Sure. So she oriented around Freedom.

[00:49:19] Marieke: Yeah. And another.

[00:49:22] Mickelle: And that changed things, but it didn’t have to. But it, for her, it meant, it meant bigger changes that, but then she was able to support herself through them. Yeah.

[00:49:30] Marieke: Because she felt more confident about it and so that, that really helped.

[00:49:35] Marieke: And I, I think. I have another woman, she felt really insecure about taking steps in I mean, she lost her job and, and also in relationship thought it was difficult to maintain or to meet somebody that, that she could build a nice relationship with. So she felt really insecure and the journey helped her to connect so much better with herself and not so much to rely on what other people would say but really find that grounding with herself and so that didn’t bring like a major change but it made her Much more confident in the choice, the choices she wanted to take in life.

[00:50:18] Marieke: And so she’s now also working on setting her own setting up her own business. And, and, you know, what I also find so beautiful to see is that you could tell somebody’s face sometimes when they did a journey, because you see that there’s just much lighter expression, much more. Yeah,

[00:50:39] Mickelle: and I think sometimes it’s really hard to see in someone’s, because at least in my life, some of the things that happened were like, I confirmed that I was in.

[00:50:50] Mickelle: in congruence with what I wanted. And so that makes it lighter as well. And so that’s that sometimes we struggle with things that are really, we’re just struggling, I think, and for, for reasons that we can’t quite tell. So there’s just a lot of layers to this. And I think that that’s to have this tool in your toolbox as a coach, I’m sure is incredibly powerful.

[00:51:15] Mickelle: And yeah, I would say that it’s a really, really. interesting to have that. And it’s coming more and more to the world, but you were kind of operating when you guys started the matter. This wasn’t a common thing. I don’t think is that, is that correct?

[00:51:31] Marieke: No, it was not common. And what is not so common is that we really focus on personal development and mental wellness.

[00:51:43] Marieke: And most people or most organizations are much more focused, I think in having an experience also when, when we started our business, what I, what I noticed is the, the organizations who did this at that point, they didn’t show their face. So I had no clue if I wanted to do a journey, psychedelic journey somewhere, I had no clue who was behind it and I wanted to do that differently.

[00:52:10] Marieke: I wanted to show my face and say, okay, you know, if you want to do a psychedelic journey, we Eric and myself will support you in this because I thought, why not showing your face? I mean, in a way I understand because I had difficulties of doing that as well in the beginning. But a trust, trust is a really important thing in doing a psychedelic journey.

[00:52:32] Mickelle: And do you think that was mostly because it wasn’t, they didn’t want, it was kind of unsafe they felt, you think, because it wasn’t quite as common, it was kind of underground still? Yeah, I

[00:52:42] Marieke: think so. Well, and in a way it wasn’t, I think mostly it was because it was uncommon maybe, or people maybe are afraid, were afraid to I don’t know, maybe do something illegal or something, but.

[00:52:54] Marieke: No, I, but you know, I think what’s important, what you mentioned is that it doesn’t have to, the outcome of a psychedelic journey doesn’t always have to be huge. It could be like small things because when you make small changes, you change direction as well. If I, how, because you did a psychedelic journey as well, right?

[00:53:18] Mickelle: Yeah, I’ve done two and that and I’ve been focused on relationship growth. And so those are. Those are big journeys for us and we did them individually, but that. So he’s done individual journeys. I’ve done individual journeys. But that has helped. So we’ve been together 20 years 21, I think actually.

[00:53:38] Mickelle: But and so that when you’re in those, so you can be in a pattern with yourself, which is what you’re kind of talking about, which is really important. So then you mix that with some, the pattern that the relationship has. And it, it makes that mindset again, double where you’re like, I want to get somewhere, but we’re focusing on the stuck parts.

[00:53:59] Mickelle: And so, but how do we unstick the stuck parts? And that I really think that there’s, there’s not another way we could have gone through some of the things. And the interesting part is. They weren’t like life altering big, big, big things, but they were big for us. They’re big for individually for us. And I think that might be universal, but that’s what I’ve noticed is it’s the little things, the little realizations, the things that come to you after, months later, sometimes, where you just have an insight into, again, like you said, your thinking brain is always on.

[00:54:34] Mickelle: They always say the longest journey is from the head to the heart, right? Like, and that, Is true, like never, never has something been more true. And so that’s been my journey. It’s been more than that. And so what I really love is that you’re focusing on people’s individual growth, but also within what they want to accomplish and create in the world.

[00:54:53] Mickelle: And so that’s another. There’s so many modalities or so many uses and places in our lives where we can focus. And so what you guys are doing with you and Eric is, and also you do three things it seems to me, like you host the gatherings for other organizations, is that right? Then you have your own coaching and then you give people the opportunity to do it with psychedelics as well.

[00:55:20] Mickelle: Do you, you don’t offer coaching without psychedelics. Is that right?

[00:55:24] Marieke: No, no, actually not at the moment. And I, I moved from doing coaching and training without psychedelics and then but my passion is to work with psychedelics. And so now I’ve, you know, there’s so much going on in, in coaching and with psychedelics that.

[00:55:43] Marieke: I hardly do any other coaching anymore and that’s fine with me. I’m, I’m completely happy with this. This is like, this is what I want to do. And I, I really get a lot of energy out of it as well. So.

[00:55:57] Mickelle: How do you describe your relationship with, so there’s, I feel like there’s like thousands of ways to, to talk about working with, with psilocybin, particularly.

[00:56:08] Mickelle: Do you feel it’s a collaboration? Do you feel like it’s a tool? Like, tell us a little bit about how you’re, what you, how you see your relationship with this.

[00:56:19] Marieke: Nice question. I see it as, well, I think I see it in different ways, or I shouldn’t say I think, but I, I feel like I, I have a different relationship.

[00:56:28] Marieke: I see it as a tool. And And I see it also as some sort of a collaboration because what happens is that when I’m with somebody who’s doing a psychedelic journey, my client is doing it, let’s say herself, and And I can sort of, sort of journey with her alongside well, I’m, I’m not taking anything, but I have the feeling I, I can sort of join her during her journey at certain point points and check in with her.

[00:57:00] Marieke: Like sometimes she will say, Hey, I’m here. Or I ask her, where are you? Or what is, or she’s sharing, like what’s happening. And so I can interact a little bit to see, okay, this is what we discussed before, and this is where you, what you would like to focus on. So I see it as a collaboration tool, I guess.

[00:57:24] Marieke: And yeah, because it’s like an interesting collaboration because in a way I’m coaching, but the person is also coaching herself in a way. So she’s doing it. She’s experiencing it. The only thing what I do is make sure that she feels safe. And sometimes I ask a certain question or to, to make sure that she’s focusing on the thing that she wants to focus on.

[00:57:49] Marieke: But still, I mean, sometimes you cannot steer everything and somebody needs to focus on something. What is present? It’s all part of the journey. It’s all part of the journey. Yeah. But I, yeah, I see it as a collaboration, but you know, I, I do also psychedelic journeys myself. And then I see it also as a, yeah, as a tool or as a really Nice help of focusing on, on what is important for me or what I, what, what can I learn?

[00:58:20] Marieke: Because I, I really have the feeling that in life we are facing challenges and I see it as sort of, yeah. Milestones or, or, or topics that we need to deal with, or we need to learn from almost like a game that you need to deal with this first before you can get to the next level. Yeah,

[00:58:41] Mickelle: I actually had that in one of my journeys where I would just like, it was like a video game.

[00:58:45] Mickelle: I would go in and then I would come out and then. People were like patching me up and upgrading me and then I would go back in and then come back out and I was like, is this seriously a video game? I don’t even play video games, but it was, yeah, and that’s, that’s an interesting way. And some people call it medicine.

[00:59:03] Mickelle: Some people call it, like, there’s so many ways that people will. And I’m still forming my own, my own vocabulary, which is why I like to ask people this question. But it’s yeah, what I did feel is that as soon as I decided to engage with it, it began acting. So it was like months I had decided before the summer to do a journey.

[00:59:23] Mickelle: And then afterwards. So then it was like three or four months, but already things started moving and, and not in a good way. Like it was like, and I recognize it now in a journey where you’re just shown things, you’re shown things, you’re shown things. And so that’s what started happening. And so for me, that resonates when people say, as soon as you engage, even before you ingest it, you’re in relationship with this force or whatever you want to call it.

[00:59:49] Mickelle: substance plant wisdom experience, I guess is the way it is.

[00:59:53] Marieke: Yeah.

[00:59:54] Marieke: Well, I, I call it psilocybin or psychedelics. But yeah, I think it’s a, it’s a beautiful tool to also to really communicate with. And because like when you take in the psilocybin, you, by, by. By forming your intention, like, okay, I really would like to focus on connecting to myself in a better way.

[01:00:17] Marieke: Or and even when you step into the journey, you, you are able to communicate with it and say, you know, if you’re a bit scared and like most people find it a bit, Like, you know, because you’re not, no, you don’t know what’s going to happen. But to really communicate with it, like, you know, be gentle or let’s take it slow, or if you think if, if things are shown to you and you’ve seen them already a few times that you can say, okay, you know, I’ve seen it before.

[01:00:45] Marieke: What can I learn from this? And, and it’s all coming from within you or within, you know, within me when I do a psychedelic journey. So. It’s not like, you know, sometimes you have this with a therapist or a coach that you think, ma, it’s not the right question. You know, it’s not really coming or I don’t feel that that’s connection.

[01:01:07] Marieke: And this is all with you. And so that I think is such a beautiful thing. And also what I really like about it is that even after the journey, sometimes it’s not so much about. an idea or knowledge, like knowing, okay, I need to do this. But sometimes it’s just about feeling and you just sort of recognize feelings in a, in a much better way.

[01:01:33] Marieke: So it’s, I think it really helps people also to be more relaxed with their emotions and to sort of, Yeah, let, let things happen because it’s, it’s also about how do you react on, on topics that happen in your life? You know, like I was saying, when, when something is happening, sometimes you just need to deal with it before you can move on.

[01:01:55] Marieke: But it’s also like, When you trust yourself, okay, you know, I, I, I just deal with this and, and I’m not going to drive myself crazy with it, or I won’t let my ego like, go completely crazy. Let’s just deal with this. And I, and then for me, it felt like, every time when I do a psychedelic journey, it, it’s, strengthen that feeling of, you know, self and, and trusting on your own gut feeling or giving yourself trust that you can handle.

[01:02:29] Marieke: All sorts of different situations.

[01:02:32] Mickelle: Yeah. Yeah. And do you find that you journey like once a year, every few months? Like what is your, cause I think it changes over time and maybe, and for sure it’s individual to each person. Some people just do it once in their whole life or none at all, obviously, obviously not everyone does this, but what is your, what have you found is a rhythm while being involved?

[01:02:54] Mickelle: Absolutely. In this for a few years.

[01:02:56] Marieke: For me, my rhythm is, it depends of course on time, but I try to do this once every three months that works really well for me, it feels like sort of a cleanup as well. Like, like I said, you know, all the things that you have stored, I’ll be able to clean that up.

[01:03:13] Marieke: And I see with other people, sometimes every six months, it could also be that if somebody is really into a sort of a transition process, like, you know, really wanting to change something like, like I had 10 years ago, that I sort of thought, okay, let’s, let’s change things that people do it in a, in a period of time of three months and they do like three journeys in a row.

[01:03:38] Marieke: And sometimes people do it once, once a lifetime and think, Oh, that was a wonderful experience. I’m, I’m fine with that. So I think it’s different for everyone, but I think it’s mostly like, how much are you open to change or how much are you open to reflecting and connecting with your subconsciousness?

[01:04:00] Mickelle: Yeah, and our subconscious, we know kind of runs our life. It’s not our brain. And what our brain is, it’s a different relationship maybe than we’ve been taught growing up. So this is really powerful movement that you can have in your life. Yeah. And so now you and Eric run the matter. And it’s beautiful.

[01:04:20] Mickelle: You, you offer this to individuals, groups, and other places. Can people do, is it mostly individual journeys that you offer or mostly group, groups with your, within your coaching practice? I mean,

[01:04:32] Marieke: my coaching is mostly one on one, so individual. And most of the time people are saying this, Oh, I want to do this individually because I’m afraid that other people will distract me or things like that.

[01:04:45] Marieke: And so they mostly start with an individual journey and then later on they come back to, to do it in a group. So when you do an individual journey, the, the focus is much more on you. And so we can go deeper and, and discuss and reflect much more in detail, but in a group, it’s also a beautiful experience because you learn from other people.

[01:05:06] Marieke: You know, you hear their stories they can be a mirror. It could be sometimes maybe annoying, but It’s also very much creating a connection because you’re all doing the same thing. And, and so I see mostly when people do it in a group in the beginning, it’s a bit uncomfortable. And then at the end, especially because we do two journeys in a row at after the last journey.

[01:05:29] Marieke: So after the second journey, there’s like a sort of a release, you know, everybody’s like really excited. Okay. We’ve done this. And, and, and so there’s sort of like a festive. Atmosphere, yeah, vibe. And, and people are sort of like partying, but not really partying, but you know, really joyful. Okay.

[01:05:48] Mickelle: Yeah. In that, in that, like, cause you’re relieved, you’re happy.

[01:05:52] Mickelle: You just, like you said, cleansed a little bit or made sense of some things. And you said something important that I don’t want to miss. So you do two journeys as a group or an individual. So you, you do two days then or three days. So

[01:06:04] Marieke: we do three days mostly. And when people are coming from abroad, we always advise them to come a day before a day earlier, because otherwise you’re still busy with, you know, airports and things like that.

[01:06:16] Marieke: And then on the first day we do an ice bath and a breathing exercise. And then we do a journey with a medium dose. So that gives you the opportunity to sort of get used to the substance a little bit. And you know, how does it work? How is it to be in a yurt? How is it to be, to do a journey in this group?

[01:06:35] Marieke: So during that first journey, you will be able to, to get rid of what’s on the surface.

[01:06:41] Mickelle: Yeah. So you’re orienting. It’s like you’re learning to learning to Operate a little bit. That’s super useful. Nice. Okay. So that’s the first day medium dose. You’re like, okay, this is what it feels like to fly the plane type of type of feeling.

[01:06:53] Mickelle: It’s

[01:06:54] Marieke: also like learning to navigate within your brain. And then the second day and, you know, after this first day, it’s like, You have time to relax and everything to be in nature. And then the second day we prepare everyone for a journey with higher dose. And we always, so based on what we’ve seen in the first day, we can also do sort of a recommendation like, Hey, we’ve seen you’ve reacted really well, or you, it didn’t do that much.

[01:07:22] Marieke: So let’s go a bit higher or but everyone decides for themselves like, okay, I’m going for this dose, but we can give some advice. And then we do the second journey with the higher dose and and you’ll be able to go deeper because you know, already like what it’s like, you feel more comfortable and you go, you can go a bit deeper to explore what’s.

[01:07:47] Marieke: What you would like to explore. And then on the third day we do integration. And we do also some yoga movements, meditation but then also an integration exercise and and of course with nice food And then that helps, always helps. And, and then people go and we, before and after we also have group a group session and then for the ones who would like to, there’s also one on one coaching.

[01:08:17] Marieke: Yeah. And, and it’s, yeah, it’s beautiful to see. We have lots of international groups. A lot of people come from abroad as well. Yeah. And

[01:08:24] Mickelle: yeah. Because it’s, it’s, the Netherlands is still one of the only places where it’s not, well, it’s not legal here, but it’s not illegal. Is that,

[01:08:35] Marieke: do I have that right?

[01:08:36] Marieke: Well, it’s psilocybin is legal only in truffles, so truffles containing psilocybin. That’s what we can use. And you cannot and it’s not legal to call it therapy. So we don’t call it therapy. I call it a psychedelic assisted coaching. But those two things are legal. So truffles and and not calling it therapy.

[01:09:00] Mickelle: Ah, but, and, but we should say like, and I forget this sometimes in the rest of the world, it’s, it’s still sometimes an illegal substance. Yes.

[01:09:08] Marieke: Yeah. So we get a lot of people from Germany from Switzerland the UK because there it’s not legal. And so people are looking for other places.

[01:09:18] Mickelle: Yeah. Yeah. It’s beautiful. And so that’s probably another reason. Not only is your place gorgeous and a great place to journey, but it’s also, and you guys are great, but also. People are coming to the place where they can be safe doing it, which is nice. And as you said, it was underground before for so many years.

[01:09:33] Mickelle: And I think it’s really brave that you, you’re like, I’m going to show my face. I’m going to make it a nice experience. I’m going to bring this to a different level, which is really beautiful. Well, so how can, thank you for sharing all of this. This has been such a beautiful journey through your life and your why, and now what you’re doing now, how can people connect with you if they would like to?

[01:09:57] Marieke: They can check our website and that’s thematter. nl. They can reach out to Instagram. That’s also two times underscore the matter and then two times underscore as well, or it’s a bit complicated, but and also through LinkedIn I would love to connect with people and you know, sometimes it’s just, you know, It starts with a question.

[01:10:19] Marieke: Most of the time people are curious and it starts with a question. I also have a link on the website that people can plan in a discovery call so they can sort of discover or to check out if it’s something for them. And I really take the time for that because Yeah, this is not like a quick thing. It’s about letting go of control and to trust somebody where you want to do this.

[01:10:46] Marieke: So I take really the time for that to, to get to know someone and to, to give information. Also when I talk to someone, I never plan straight away a meeting or journey. I always tell people like, let this sort of thinking and check in how you feel about this. And if you still feel good about this, then let’s continue.

[01:11:05] Marieke: And sometimes a question comes and somebody does the journey six months later. I mean, there’s no rush. There’s no. There’s, yeah, it’s really about, does it feel right?

[01:11:17] Mickelle: Yeah. So if you’re curious, you’re reaching out to you really with just a question, just feeling, you don’t have to be ready to, to drink the, drink the tea and that’s really a beautiful way of approaching it.

[01:11:30] Mickelle: Cause I think it’s it’s important who you journey with, I think. And that’s true in life and in psychedelics.

[01:11:36] Marieke: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

[01:11:38] Mickelle: Yeah. Well, thank you so much for your time today. I really appreciate it. And we’ll link everything below and yeah, I’m sure we will be speaking in the future more about this.

[01:11:48] Marieke: Thank you so much for having me, Mickelle. Thank you so much.

[01:11:53] Mickelle: Okay. That’s it for today. I hope you’ve enjoyed our show. For the latest insights on living internationally, join us at HouseofPeregrine. com to find out how you can connect with our community. Let’s craft our life story with intention together.