Move to NL

Move to the Netherlands Visas 30 Ruling Contract negotiation and more with Move to NL

Mickelle: Today I am joined by Kirsten Freischmann and Jelena Mikic. They are the dynamic duo behind Move2NL, a company dedicated to simplifying and carrying out the legal, and bureaucratic processes of moving to the Netherlands. They are both Peregrines themselves, Kris a Dutchie, who has lived all over and is now settled in the Netherlands and loves to use her legal mind to help others live internationally. And Jelena, whose journey has taken her from her native Serbia to a permanent move to the Netherlands.

Mickelle: Move2NL is a great resource for internationals moving to, or to. Or who are currently living in the Netherlands to help navigate the inevitable immigration and legal issues we all face around things like partnerships, partnership visas, immigration, negotiating employment contracts, housing contracts, and more.

Mickelle: We talk about so many great things in this episode to consider and know that when moving to the Netherlands. So if you’re considering a move or even just live in the Netherlands, you are going to love this episode and learn a ton. I had a great time interviewing these two, and I know you’ll enjoy it too if you love.

Mickelle: We are up to at House of Peregrine. Don’t forget to share this episode and subscribe to the House of Peregrine podcast so you won’t miss an episode. Also, feel free to head over to our website, house of peregrine.com to find out more about what we’re up to, join our events, our membership, get our app so you can get exclusive offers and much more.

Mickelle: Lastly, follow along on socials. We are House of Peregrine everywhere and we hope you follow along. Okay. On today’s episode, Kris and Jelena, thank you so much for joining us today on the House of Peregrine podcast. And thank you to our audience who’s joining us as we talk about this really fun and important topic to living internationally.

Mickelle: Kris and Jelena, I want you guys both to introduce yourselves briefly to our audience. So why don’t you go ahead first, Kris. So,

Kris: my name is Kris, uh, my last name is Freichman, I’m not German, as many people think, of our own listeners, and I am the legal eagle of the team, and I tend to make paperwork and difficult processes more fun, or at least understandable.

Kris: Great.

Jelena: Yeah. Hi, I’m Jelena. I’m an expat myself. I’ve lived in the Netherlands for the last three years. I’m originally from Serbia. Um, out of the two of us, I’m the one with the experience as an expat in the Netherlands and with, you know, the not understanding how the whole stroopwafel pindakaas thing works.

Jelena: Um,

Mickelle: you’re the subject matter expert. Yes.

Jelena: Yeah, exactly. So I rely on Kris for a lot of those things.

Mickelle: Nice. And I wanted to just go back really quickly, briefly. So back again, Kris, give us your backstory, just how you grew up a little bit before, before we get into it.

Kris: Ooh, that is very interesting. So, um, like I said, I’m technically Dutch.

Kris: Uh, I would like to say that I knew what I wanted when I was small, which I absolutely did not. Um, somehow after a lot of field studies. I recognized that I really love law. So I started to do a law studies, um, really with the idea to become a lawyer in those shiny law firms in Amsterdam South, uh, which we call like the big five for the big seven, eventually that was not for me.

Kris: And, you know, the universe just rolled me into a startup and skill up culture. And this is where my personality was truly shaped. And this is also where I met Jelena.

Mickelle: Okay, Lena, take it from there. What’s your story?

Jelena: Oh gosh, I studied journalism because I also didn’t know what I wanted to be when I grow up.

Jelena: I, I’m still not sure. Uh, to be honest, I’m just doing the next thing that, that is interesting and where I can learn more and that just makes sense. So I studied journalism. After that, I went into event management. After that, I went into marketing. After that, I went into client relations. Uh, so it’s just been, my career path has kind of been naturally going from one thing to another that interested me.

Jelena: And last year in July, uh, Kris and I started, uh, Motu Al as, you know, our own business as, as first time. business owners. And yeah, it’s been quite a journey since it’s

Mickelle: been wild, but fun. Okay. So I’m going to ask this last time. So where did you grow up? Who were you outside of your businesses, outside of your training?

Mickelle: So we’ll start again. Jelena, let’s start with you this time. You grew up in Serbia.

Jelena: Yes. I was born and raised in Serbia. I never thought I would leave Serbia. To be honest, I was perfectly happy living there. I lived, I moved quite a lot in Serbia, actually, because my dad was in the military and military families just go all over the place as, you know, the duty calls.

Jelena: Um, so for me, it was always kind of easy to adapt to new environments because I, I had to do it as, as a kid, a lot. So I actually grew up mostly in the South of the country, which is very different to the North of the country. The language is a little different. The culture is very different. The North is also a lot more diverse in terms of the types of people and the nationalities who live there.

Jelena: And then I moved to the North when I started, um, university. And that was super cool for me because I saw my country in a completely different light and I saw a different side of it. Um, and I stayed there for, you know, the last 10 years of living, um, in Serbia. I really, really enjoyed it. I’m a person who really loves small cities, uh, walkable cities.

Jelena: And that is also one thing that attracted me to the Netherlands that you can actually find places where you’re not dependent on cars and on all of those, those things. So I like living slow.

Kris: I must confess that every time when I’m saying to Jelena, it’s walking distance, she looks at me with a little bit of a side eye and I said, are you sure?

Kris: Is that like Dutch walking distance? Or is that actually

Mickelle: walking distance? That’s a question everyone asks themselves, who lives here?

Kris: I’m like, it’s only like a 20 minute walk.

Mickelle: That is not walking distance. But Jelena, in Serbia, is that how it was where you grew up? Or did you just know you wanted that? Is that different than how you grew up?

Jelena: Yeah, I was always in, in smaller cities and, uh, the city where I went to university, it’s called Novi Sad, is the second biggest city of the country. That was the biggest city I lived in, in Serbia. But it was still walkable. It was still, people are very nice and life, like the pace is very slow, uh, there as compared to Belgrade.

Jelena: That’s the capital and where everything is kind of a lot faster and a lot bigger.

Mickelle: So it’s just like every other country in the world.

Jelena: Absolutely. Yeah,

Mickelle: no, it makes sense. And so what. Um, drew you from Serbia to relocate to the Netherlands.

Jelena: Yeah, so my husband, so his mom and his brother who lived here for the last 10 years, uh, or so, and we were always playing with the idea of, oh, maybe we do want to move at some point.

Jelena: However, uh, we, we didn’t. We’ve been working for international companies, um, our entire careers. And with that type of a salary in Serbia, you can just live quite comfortably and not think about it. And our families are there, our friends are there. It’s just, it’s, it’s nice. You know, you can just enjoy yourself.

Jelena: However, at one point to. During the pandemic, you know, in, in all of these Balkan countries, you’d always have, uh, the uproar against the government and for a good reason, uh, because there’s a lot of corruption, there’s a lot of things going not great for the people, you know, in the middle class and kind of with lower incomes and there There were huge protests against the government.

Jelena: Um, so I think that was four years ago at this point. And we really thought we were both so hopeful. Oh my God, something is going to change finally, uh, because it looked like that. There was kind of hope in the air. And then those protests were shut down by the government in a very, manipulative way. So they were kind of, they imploded them from the inside, so it didn’t even look like they, they did anything.

Jelena: And at that point we looked at each other and we were like, yeah, it’s, it’s time. We don’t have a future here. Um, you know, I have to think about my retirement, my health insurance, my all of those things that make Your future secure. So it’s nice that we’re having a good time here, that the food is great, that it’s cheap to live, that our friends are here.

Jelena: Um, but we just had to make this step kind of for, for a future. And, uh, it’s, it’s funny. I was just talking to Kris the other day about this. In Serbia, I would have never had my own business because of the regulations, because of how difficult it is because of how much things have to be in the gray zone.

Jelena: You know, you talk to an accountant and the first thing he tells you is, well, these are the regulations, but this is how we can curb them. And this is what we can do to actually make your business manageable.

Mickelle: Got it. And so that moment when you guys decided that our future is not here, um, that is a moment, a lot of us share a lot of a share that, that this, um, I think in our community, we can understand where it’s a, it’s a moment that’s actually, it’s both exciting and a little bit sad.

Mickelle: So there’s a, there’s a moment of reckoning that I think, uh, when identified, you can kind of see the rest of your story play out from there. And so that, um, thanks for sharing that moment with us. And then Kris, you’re, you’re kind of still in the country that you are from, but, or you grew up, but tell us your story.

Mickelle: Cause I love I love this part. Well, if you

Kris: really, really, really want to go back to the origin, this starts sounding like a Netflix sequel, but nevermind. So if you go back to the origin, I grew up in Saandam, this is where I was born, uh, which is also the north of Holland. And, uh, we only stayed there very briefly.

Kris: We moved to, at one point, the middle of Netherlands, Utrecht area for my father’s work. But in all honesty, I have. Hence, am I behind? Honestly. I just, I just cannot manage to settle down. And it doesn’t matter if it’s in a relationship or in a job. I always told Jelena as in, I would really would love to have, um, you know, a fixed job and a fixed home.

Kris: But then I get like this little icky feeling as in, haha, I have to move. So at one point when I got to a certain age, I was looking for like this sense of belonging, this aha moment, this is an aha, I’m home kind of feeling. That never happened. So I lived everywhere in the Netherlands from Den Bosch, uh, which we call Oeteldonk.

Kris: Uh, so, nevermind, it’s something Dutch. Uh, I lived in, um, Bilthoven, I lived in Amsterdam, at different places. So my mom at one point made a joke, which was like, if you move like one more time, I swear to God, I will buy you a caravan, and I will drive you around in the Netherlands, and I will just put you somewhere down where you, you know, want to, want to, you know, explore, uh, in a sense, this new place.

Kris: And that is, I think, the base story of my life. I like to explore. I like this freedom. And I spent, I think, my whole teenage years and child, when I was like young, like, like really a child, I spent so much time trying to find my tribe, trying to belong, trying to be part of a group. And at one point I just realized and said, you know what, I’m a Sigma.

Kris: I love to be alone. I’m, I’m like this lone wolf. But at the same time, this gives me the opportunity and the luxury, in a sense, to literally dip my toes in all these different environments and also in friend groups and in countries. Um, because I have also spent some decent time in Sofia, Bulgaria. Um, now I actually am like kind of home.

Kris: There were only two places on this planet where I felt an actual homecoming, and this was Switzerland. I’m not sure what’s, what’s there, but when I came there I was like, this is so clean and it’s so beautiful here, and perhaps I just like expensive things, huh, Jelena? Yeah, I was going

Jelena: to say that. I think it was just the rich vibe that kind of goes really well with you, yeah.

Kris: So, and Haarlem. Um, and Harlem is close to Amsterdam. It has almost this Charles Dickens kind of vibe. It’s really, really beautiful to see. Um, so yeah, Harlem is my second best

Mickelle: home. Well, and I think, um, anyone who’s done this can resonate with feeling like an alien where you were born or how your family did things.

Mickelle: And then, so whether it’s through something like Jelena’s story, where she was felt perfectly at home, but then didn’t. Realize that her life no longer belonged here. She could no longer contribute or it was no longer contributing to her or if like you, you had a moment or have never fit or never wanted to stay put.

Mickelle: Those are those things can exist in the same community. And I think we all have so much in common. So I love that you guys have come together to make this easier for others. So both sides of this story. So tell us how Now, with move to NL, tell us the origin stories. How did you guys come together in making this venture?

Mickelle: Because it’s actually a little bit of a leap from where you were, if I’m not mistaken. So tell us that story.

Kris: So we started working at the same company and this company had the opportunity to connect with other people who were also based in the Netherlands. Uh, to meet each other. We were working

Jelena: remote.

Jelena: We were working fully

Kris: remote.

Jelena: Yeah. Super happy. I’ve been working remotely for the last seven years and I really love the flexibility of it, but it was also nice to come together at co working spaces and, and work with other people in the Netherlands.

Kris: So, I presume that, that specific day, uh, we had set up a little group with other people who were based in the Netherlands and these were people from Australia, these were people from Germany.

Kris: Uh, we were all packed together like in one office, uh, at the kennels of Amsterdam. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, Heergracht, uh, which was very beautiful office space, and me and Jelena just immediately hit it off. Jelena just fed me with little schneckies out of her bag, because god, I love my snacks. So she stuffed my face, you know, immediately, as in, here you have a snack and something else, so.

Kris: We, uh. I

Jelena: bribed her. This is how this came to life. You know, I gave her all the bribes.

Kris: You bribed me with snacks. So from that point on, I think that, um, during our work, our fully remote work, we start calling each other, mostly to complain, I presume, well, to complain about stuff that went wrong in the company and with external vendors.

Kris: And at one point, um, you know, shit went south. With the company that we work for, can I say shit on this podcast? Well, I’m sorry, I just did. You can and you did. You can and I did. Um, and then at one point I said to Jelena, I said, we, we joked actually, it was more a joke. I said, we could do this better. Until it no longer became a joke.

Kris: And I remember vividly that I called Jelena in the pouring rain. In front of Albert Hein and I called her and I said, let’s do it. And from that point on, uh, we, we resigned, uh, we worked our notice periods and, uh, yeah. And then we started to full time entrepreneuring.

Mickelle: in summer. This sounds like a love story, but it’s actually a co founding story, which actually are never that far from, you know, similar lives.

Jelena: I always say this is a business marriage. You know, this is, I might have a husband, but this is my, you know, business wife. So it’s,

Mickelle: yeah,

Jelena: it’s what it is. Yeah.

Mickelle: And so what, what is it that, so I can see in your story that Jelena, you wanted something like what you’ve created and Kris, you are Dutch and want to bring, to make it easier for people to do this.

Mickelle: But what do you think the glue is? Because you guys offer legal services for international people or expats coming to the Netherlands. Um, and that draws on your background, Kris, law, but also you do more than that. And so tell me, tell me what you think this secret sauce or the special, Beginnings are for that.

Jelena: I think what it really, where it really came from is Kris in her previous work experience as well, has had the chance to work with people coming to the Netherlands or moving to different countries. And she has had the chance to see how difficult that is. And she’s had the chance to manage those processes.

Jelena: I, on my end, have gone through that stress on my own. Um, and I, I was just thinking about this a couple of months ago. I realized I’m. Basically what I did, I was gaslighting myself into thinking, Oh, this is so easy for about a year, um, so that I could just go through this process of, you know, preparing for moving for six months and then kind of settling in for another six months for a year or whatever.

Jelena: And only afterwards I could like unpack my feelings and actually realize how stressed I was and how difficult this really was. You know, I was sitting with my husband rereading our. 75 times because we didn’t want to, you know, end up in jail. Um, I mean, obviously we’re not going to end up in jail, but we just think that way, you know, you don’t want to mess with bureaucracy.

Jelena: Um, so it was a combination of, uh, you know, Kris has had the chance to see it and chance to participate in it from the side. I have had the chance to go through it. I understand what the challenges are. And I said to myself at one point, if I can help other people make this less stressful. I’m going to be so happy if I can make, you know, one person have an easier time than I did.

Jelena: I will be so happy.

Mickelle: And so it comes from a place of deep empathy, it sounds like, and wanting and being able to optimize something through your expertise.

Jelena: Yeah. And I think where it went after that is we realized that there aren’t that many resources out there that explain very complex legal concepts in simple English.

Jelena: And that is kind of what we’re really, really focusing on right now. And thanks to Kris, um, and it, it goes into a lot of different areas that are important to people when, because, you know, you come to a different country, everything is in a different language, and even if it’s not, you don’t fully understand the context at any point, the cultural context, the legal context, any of the context.

Jelena: Even things that are kind of easy to understand in your own country, it’s, it’s just a next level of complexity.

Mickelle: It’s where culture comes in. And like you said, context is so important and knowing the reasons for it helps you to maybe be safer and do a better job at integrating. But also, do you feel like it also helps you to, um, I don’t know, like, like, Kris, do you feel like it helps you to make the process more humane somehow?

Kris: Absolutely. And the funny thing is, is that when I have to tell people why I am doing what I’m doing, it is like a multiple layered answer. The first one is freedom. Like, the, the overall red line, red thread to everything we do is freedom. It’s not only freedom for us, uh, as in to work with who we want to work with, to, you know, shape our own brand and ourselves in a sense, but also freedom for the person that we’re helping.

Kris: Because it feels very limiting, it feels very restraining, it feels very like, ah, tight. Like clenching, the thing that Jelena was talking about, when you are preparing for a move, and to give that person the space and the tools to just breathe for a second, because what you read you understand, that was something so important for us.

Kris: And the funny thing is, in our whole journey of entrepreneuring, we also shaped opportunity for ourselves every day. And that was so fun. Because I have always been phrased by law firms that you could not explain the law in normal English, because then it would lose its Value. Prestige. Prestige, but also, um, the carrier.

Kris: So, the message. the actual message that the words would hold. And so lawyers always tried to get me out of the, you know, making legal texts simple. So, and I saw that as a challenge, which of course I had to kick against. So, so what, this is what I did. And of course, You will never be able to fully grasp the law or to make it fully, you know, airtight and applicable to your current situation, if you have that question, but it creates a better baseline and a better understanding.

Kris: And that was also, um, one of the things and the goals that Jelena and I tried to reach as in create that baseline, explain the ABCs. And then when a person is still unsure, They can always reach out to us.

Mickelle: So you’re lowering the baseline of where people, where understanding is so they can start with a more rich understanding of the baseline and then go into their, their individual, um, exemptions or, you know, things they need or, and that makes sense.

Mickelle: And equal equating it to freedom is so important because I think that being a main value of yours and of your business is really, really beautiful. Um, and I think There’s been different times and different people I’ve talked to where they realized that they were not free, so they can’t go from one place on the earth to another simply because of where they were born, who they are, who they love, you know, all sorts of things.

Mickelle: And so freedom, making this an easier process, especially in a time when I think worldwide, um, governments are kind of kicking back against this idea of freedom is actually a really bold move.

Jelena: Yeah, I agree. And I’m actually in that group myself of like, I could not have chosen to go anywhere I wanted. My original passport does not have that power really.

Jelena: Um, so when people ask me why I’ve chosen the Netherlands, it, I have not chosen it. It was just the option that was available to me. And then I decided to see if I like it and I liked it, fortunately. Um, but if I didn’t have this option, I would have had to work way, way harder. To get to a different country.

Jelena: than, than what I have. So, um, I can definitely understand how difficult it can be. Yeah.

Mickelle: And, and Jelena, what does that mean to you? What does that mean that the Netherlands was one place? What does that make you want to give back to the country? Or does it?

Jelena: Um, So I, we also had an interesting conversation a couple of weeks ago where, um, someone asks us, so what is, you know, what’s the limit of, you know, you’re paying taxes as a business where you would, you know, no longer be happy to do it anymore.

Jelena: And you wouldn’t want to avoid as many taxes as possible. And I said, my perspective on this is just. Very not useful because I don’t have a problem with paying taxes in the Netherlands because things work. And I know that my taxes are not being used for, you know, a politician to take his mistress to Bali, you know, to a three week vacation.

Jelena: They’re being used to repair the roads. They’re being used for, you know, subsidies for people who don’t have money and for people who need to get their kids into school. Um, childcare and stuff like that. Um, so, sure, the system is not perfect, but for me, coming from a way less perfect system, things just work here.

Jelena: And I don’t mind paying taxes, I don’t mind, you know, being a part of it in a way that it’s, you know, predicted. Um, so, yeah. So, yeah, my perspective on that is that I also talked to my dog groomer yesterday and she, yeah, she said, um, her father is not doing well and we were talking about retirement and this and that and when I told her that my father in Serbia, he’s retired, he’s over 60 and he still has to work in order to be able to survive because his pension is just so low, she said, Oh, well, I thought things are bad here.

Jelena: But when you compare it, it just, yeah, it’s not that bad, is it? So it’s all about your, your reference point. And that’s why for me, I, I know sometimes I have a very skewed view of like how good things are in the Netherlands because I come from a place where, where they’re worse. Sure, some things are maybe, you know, better in Serbia.

Jelena: People say the social life and the food and the this and that. Um, I don’t have that problem. I mean, I’m, I’m enjoying it here as well, but, um, yeah. So for me, it’s just, uh, your reference point is very important.

Mickelle: Yeah. And it sounds like to me, what you’re saying is you want to contribute to a system that you feel is working and will hold You throughout your life instead of what you’ve seen in your own country.

Mickelle: And so it makes you maybe have a different perspective on the money you’re paying in taxes or, um, what you’re contributing. Or honestly, I think it’s also, you’re investing your, your time in just being in the country and contributing anywhere, anywhere people are, they’re always contributing. And so thank you for sharing that.

Mickelle: Cause I think it’s, um, sometimes lost on, uh, maybe especially in the current political client. climate worldwide is that, um, people who get to live or they choose approach things differently. And so I really think that that’s a value that I hold dear and maybe you guys are helping to enable.

Jelena: I know.

Jelena: Totally agreed.

Mickelle: Yeah. Okay, cool. Let’s move into. So you guys make some. Um, Actually really amazing content and I, I want to direct anyone to kind of check out your content because you guys really do do exactly what Kris said, which is simplify things at the base level so that people can go then go deeper for what they they need.

Kris: It’s actually really funny because the content that we created. I absolutely hate to get myself on camera. Like, so, so much. And I remember that in the beginning, when we started our business, Jelena was like, immediately like, put a camera in front of her face. So natural. So natural, you know? And everyone just really resonated with her.

Kris: And we’re like, oh, we love your content. And her LinkedIn exploded. And, you know, everyone was immediately tapping into her story. And it took me ages, like, literally ages, to find, you know, my juice, you know, my mojo in regards to that filming, because I was extremely camera shy. I drove Jelena absolutely insane with, you know, downloading something in our drive, then deleting it because my hair wasn’t looking great.

Kris: I drove Jelena absolutely mad. And also, I wanted to do everything. so perfect, you know, and that was maybe like a little bit of, it’s called trauma. It’s called trauma, you know, caused by lawyers and law firms, where it has to be like, top notch. And I just had very much difficulty explaining things in a sense that it wasn’t like snoring boring.

Kris: At the same time, it would, you know, initiate Or, like, tickle, uh, someone’s interest. So I had, like, so much trouble actually getting there, and I think that we finally, we finally nailed it down. Yeah.

Mickelle: So you guys are good for each other that way. So you like, you have the legal, legal no, and Jelena is empowering you to, and then you guys bring it together.

Mickelle: It’s perfect. So I want to, uh, Knowing everyone out there that this is not legal advice. Um, um, Disclaimer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was, um, I want you guys to go over a few things that you’ve done on your social media, but I’d like you just to really do it succinctly. So, um, two things that came up recently. Um, European residency versus Dutch residency.

Mickelle: Can you explain it in a nutshell?

Jelena: Um, I feel like that’s such a common question and the answer is in the name, you know. Um, if you’ve lived in the Netherlands long enough, uh, you are, uh, eligible for permanent residency and then you can think about whether you want the Dutch permanent residency or the EU permanent residency.

Jelena: The difference in getting one or the other is if you get the Dutch permanent residency, you can live and work in the Netherlands. If you get the EU permanent residency, you can move around, uh, European Union. Countries live their work there, uh, as almost as if you’re a European Union citizen, not quite there, you know, with the voting rights and stuff like that.

Jelena: It’s, uh, not, uh, fully. As in, you know, if you were on that status. Um, so yeah, that’s the difference. Whether you want to stay just in the Netherlands or you want to move around and be mobile around Europe.

Mickelle: So the downsides of the Dutch one is you can’t move around. Are there any downsides to the European Union?

Jelena: Well, that is a very. personal, you know, Kris is going to say now it depends. It’s a very personal thing, right? And you have to look at everyone’s personal situation and all of the factors. There aren’t any like downsides that you can now, um, say, you know, you lose this much income every year or something like that.

Jelena: It’s just, uh, you know, the, the process and, and you get there and, um, yeah, it depends on what you want at that given point.

Mickelle: Okay, this was gonna be rapid fire, so that covers it. Okay. Partner visa, common misconceptions. That you need to be

Kris: married. And, and before we dive that into that deeper, I think that a fun story to share is, um, Yolanda and I discovered that the most wanted job at the IND, so the Immigration and Naturalization Department, surfaces and islands is to deal with partner visas because of the, the content that you have to submit to prove that you’re already in a sustainable relationship.

Mickelle: So that’s the most

Mickelle: so you can provide a marriage certificate or all this evidence. Is that right? Yes. Correct.

Kris: So then I will, I will let you take this one because, uh, you also had a little clip where you were like,

Jelena: Yeah. So, as Kris said, um, you don’t need to be married, you just need to be in a long term sustainable relationship.

Jelena: What is long term and sustainable? Six months or so, but it can also be shorter if you, like, really prove that, you know, this is, this is a legit relationship. How do you do that? You prove it by showing. You were on vacation together, photos from different places, different times, your texts and stuff like that.

Jelena: And yeah, that is how we found out that, um, people actually do send their spicy texts to IND as well as a part of the M photos and stuff like that. So maybe don’t send the spicy stuff, I mean, if not necessary, it’s okay.

Kris: But nevertheless, it’s apparently highly entertaining for, uh, the people who are working there.

Kris: Uh, there is a very high attrition in the IND. Separately from that department, because apparently this is kind of literally where the juice is at. So, so maybe do send it. I

Mickelle: mean,

Jelena: maybe do like if you’re comfortable with that do set, but you don’t have to, you don’t have

Mickelle: to. That’s really funny. But it is, you know, it isn’t showing the invasiveness that actually immigration does bring into your life.

Mickelle: You do have to, it is invasive in a strange way that maybe we’re reacting to as humans. Um, and every country is the same. It’s not just the Netherlands, but, um, okay. I want you guys to talk about, oh, uh, when kids are involved. So I know it’s complicated. So if you’re not married or you’re on a partner visa and you have kids together, what are some things that people may not know?

Jelena: I think, uh, one of the things that’s also important there is if you’re on a visa, um, and you’re on a partnership visa, for example, and you break up, um, your basis for having a visa is gone, right? So that means you need to go back to your country unless you can change the type of your visa. For example, you get a job or something else.

Jelena: But if the kids are involved, it’s fine. then things can be different. So, uh, Kris can help me here, uh, as well, uh, because I think I always mess this up. Uh, but if the kid is a Dutch citizen, uh, so kid, the kid was born in the Netherlands, um, then you do have the right to stay in the country. Based on on your child.

Jelena: If you

Kris: are the primarily caregiver if You take care of the kid. Oh gosh There were a couple of other requirements such as in don’t pin me down on this because this has to come from the back Of my mind somewhere, but if the kid goes to school There are like a set of requirements if you are a non au citizen, but your children are, then under certain circumstances, if you can prove that you are the primary caregiver, then you can stay in the Netherlands to take care of them.

Kris: But if your children are not AU citizen, and you will lose your visa while you were a dependent or a partner on someone else’s Let’s say there are many, there are, there are many ways to roam, first of all, many ways leads to roam. Um, but you, uh, most likely have to go to court also to, uh, to remain in the Netherlands if you want to stay there.

Kris: I think

Jelena: in a nutshell it gets complicated if there are kids involved as well.

Mickelle: And that’s what I have really been exploring. And this is going to maybe be a pause of our rapid fire, because I think that a lot of international people and maybe this is this is more expats than maybe, um, all internationals, but I see a lot of people coming over, giving up their jobs, taking over full time responsibility for the kids, whether that’s a man or a woman, it doesn’t matter.

Mickelle: But that is a huge, huge risk. Immigration wise.

Jelena: It is. So it’s, we get asked a lot, which visa is better, better, you know, whatever better means should I go for the highly skilled migrant visa or work visa, or should I go for the partner visa? And the answer is, you know, what do you believe in more, your relationship or your employment contract?

Jelena: Wow. What do you think is safer for you? If you, if your relationship is not stable. Say that

Mickelle: again.

Jelena: Yeah. So if your relationship is not stable, then that is probably not the best visa. For you, if your relationship with your employer or your employer is maybe not financially, you know, in the best position, maybe that’s not the best.

Jelena: You know, option for you. So it’s just so important that there isn’t a better visa or a worse visa. There is, you know, the, what’s the best for you.

Mickelle: So sorry to interrupt. So say someone is coming like on a, I’m going to think of the people I know really quick. So say they’re coming for a two year contract or a five year contract with a company.

Mickelle: They’re there. Your spouse comes with you. They’re not allowed to get a job on the visa because they come as a partner. Or are there options that people can fight for that are safer? Because relationships change dramatically when you move to a new country, even if it’s just for a year. And so, What I’d like to know, and this is what I’m trying to get at, is, of course, the, if it’s a big company, they just want you to come along as, as a spouse.

Mickelle: They don’t want to mess with you. Tell us what might be useful things to consider that are not that. One funny

Kris: thing is, before we dive into like the legal stuff, as in what to do when you are getting fired or laid off, or what happens if you break up, because we do have a very bad joke there. But anyhows, we will get to that.

Kris: But the funny thing is, when Move2Now started, we started to work with a partner, who is unfortunately, um, no longer existing. But they did social reintegration, or social integration. And they said that 70 percent of the partners within one year, Wanted to go back home because they were just not able to reintegrate.

Kris: And this is the biggest reason why eventually and highly skilled migrant quits his job and get back to the, get back to his home country purely and only because the partner could not settle in the Netherlands and therefore he choose for his relationship or her relationship. And then they went back. So just to give you more like the importance of.

Kris: A visa is not the only thing that you have to, you know, take into consideration. It’s literally as in you have to set yourself up for a rough period. Um, Helena also blocked about this.

Jelena: I think some really big companies have recognized this. I mean, I assume they recognize it from the financial point of view of like retaining employees that are very expensive to get into the country and hire and all of that.

Jelena: Um, and they’re setting up spouse support groups, um, and, um, which is, I don’t know how successful that is, but it gives people, you know, a space with other spouses to kind of, um, not be as alone, get in a conversation. work and just have a softer landing. And I also noticed that some regions, uh, in the Netherlands, mostly in the South, also have this expat spouse initiatives, um, that try to get them jobs and try to get them again, uh, easier, uh, to, to have an easier time integrating.

Jelena: Um,

Mickelle: so my point here though, is that you are at the, um, the whim of these, these systems. And what I’ve noticed, and this is a lot of people that I know, is usually the partners that I have seen over the years, um, they both were working in their home country and then they get this great opportunity for a year, two years, five years.

Mickelle: to work as an expat in the Netherlands. So their partner gives up their job.

Jelena: Yes. Yes. And I think it’s easy for resentment to grow there in a relationship. It’s easy for the partner who gave up their job to feel useless and to feel like there’s no sense of purpose and to That’s my point. The relationship changes.

Kris: It does. And I spoke to, uh, I spoke to expats as well, uh, even clients of us, and at one point, a woman told her story, and she was a stay at home mom by semi force, because she just couldn’t find a job yet. And she said that she woke up, she got extremely stressed, they went by bike to the school. Which was already scary as hell for her to be on a bike through Dutch traffic.

Kris: Then they came into the schoolyard and the teacher starts dressing here in Dutch. So she had stress from that. She went, uh, she went to the supermarket and she tries to pay with a credit card. While the queue in Amsterdam is like, you know, queuing up behind her and she tries to pay with a credit card.

Kris: And of course a credit card declines because for everyone who’s listening here, you cannot pay with a credit card. at the supermarket you can. And then of course you had all these Amsterdam people be like, oh my god, you fucking expats. So then you’re coming home already like crying. And then you have that throughout the whole day.

Kris: And then hubby husband comes home, also tired from his new work, new environment, new everything. And then you’re crying. Because you also have no support groups whatsoever. But on from a legal perspective, if you were on our partner visa. You can find a job. I mean, Jelena was also on a spouse visa. And she found herself a job.

Kris: On all visas, that’s allowed, is that right? On a 30 percent ruling. You can switch them if you want to. But 30 percent tax ruling will no longer apply if you’re on a spouse visa. Why? Because one of the requirements of a 30 percent tax ruling is that you’re hired from abroad.

Jelena: Okay. So if you found your job after you arrived here, you, you can’t get it.

Jelena: Um, I think it’s, I think it’s very valuable what you mentioned that, you know, the real relationship changes. I, I don’t have kids, so it was just me and my husband and like managing that. And I remember vividly when we arrived the first six months, I had such a strong urge to not depend on him, to not burden him with guiding me through the system because he, he did spend more time in the Netherlands than I did in the previous years.

Jelena: Um, To, you know, go to the municipality on my own, to fill out all of my paperwork on my own, to figure out the supermarket and the money and everything on my own. And that was not good solution, just to be clear. It, you know, like you still need to do it together. But I had such a strong urge to not be a burden to him.

Jelena: It’s like he did all of these things. He is my sponsor. You know, he signed the piece of paper that says he’s sponsoring me.

Mickelle: Yep. It does things to your brain. It does things to your relationship to be that dependent. And so I want to go. So first of all, Kris, did you just describe my first week of living here?

Mickelle: Yes, you did. Like with your school grocery store, um, and that, that’s a stress. What I want to know is. When people are sitting at their house listening to this before they move here, what are some great ways to be strategic in how you’re thinking? So your, your employer offers you a package. They, they’re going to give you, let’s say, the 30 percent ruling.

Mickelle: They’re sponsoring you on the 30 percent ruling. It sounds like what I’m hearing is if your spouse wants a job. They know they want a job. They need to be hired before you arrive. That’s one thing to consider. We

Kris: do have a very juicy starter kit to download on our website for free, which gives you great tips on how to prepare.

Kris: So maybe that takes the mental load off. But I think, and it’s what I learned from Jelena, don’t take it lightly. And literally think, as in, this is going to be a big change, and it’s going to be tough. Um, because Jelena also had a, I think it was a blog post or a LinkedIn post, literally describing her sleep pattern, your, um, period, your menstruation, that went like, on its ass.

Kris: Uh, everything, that completely, as in, your whole schedule was like, Not scheduling due to stress.

Jelena: I think if we’re talking logistically, um, one thing that I noticed talking to people who are coming here to work is they don’t ask enough questions from the company on the relocation package. So when I ask, so what is your company doing for you?

Jelena: They’re like, well, they’re going to do the visa and they’re offering me a relocation package. And when I ask what’s in the relocation package, they are not quite sure. So ask all the questions about that, uh, because. Especially bigger companies get, give you a lot of support in this process. So once you know that it’s going to be easier to figure out what it is that you’re missing when you’re making that list of like boxes to tick before you come over.

Jelena: Um, as Kris said, if it’s important for you that both spouses have the 30 percent ruling, uh, then the dependent also needs to find a job before, um, coming to the Netherlands. And when we say that it’s important that you can at least prove that like a job offer was accepted. So maybe the contract was not signed, but you have emails that say, You know, they sent you an offer.

Jelena: You said, yes, I accept. Um, super important stuff. Uh, the other thing that I think is a huge mental load on people is how are we going to find a place to live? Obviously there’s a housing crisis, not just here, but in, in most, uh, countries. And. One thing that people, it’s all like,

Mickelle: it’s all expats faults, by the way, we should, it’s

Jelena: all our fault.

Jelena: I’m sorry. In

Mickelle: every country, in every country of the world, this is true. So it’s all our fault. So go on.

Jelena: Uh, I think one thing people do not know is that you can actually get, um, a real estate agent to, uh, go touring, uh, virtually for you even before you’re in the Netherlands. So if you want to rent something, proper right away, you can get an agent, they’re going to go do viewings for you, and you can just come into your own, I mean, your own rented apartment, um, when you come here.

Jelena: Um, I know the other option, obviously, is get a temporary accommodation for a month or, or two months, and then like an Airbnb or whatever, and then use that time to find an apartment. So those are kind of the. Biggest kind of checkpoints. And the other thing that people often, um, don’t fully understand, especially if they’re coming to work at a company that doesn’t have a physical location, so they can just go work wherever they, they can just go live wherever they would like, um, is that there are parts of the Netherlands that where there’s more internationals and where it’s easier to find your way around just with English, um, especially in that kind of first.

Jelena: Um, first period where you probably still don’t, you didn’t have the time to sit down and learn Dutch, so it’s also a consideration for when you’re picking. Yeah.

Mickelle: And do you advise people? So when, if I were to have it to do all over again and I didn’t have kids, I would settle in a place that doesn’t have English as much, um, to be able to learn Dutch because once you establish your relationships in English, it’s really hard to change, but that doesn’t mean you’re here long term.

Mickelle: If you’re only here a year, that’s absolutely great advice. If you don’t want to learn or you can’t, or you don’t think you have.

Jelena: Exactly. I think I had someone ask me a couple of weeks ago, so, uh, do your clients normally, I was in this Dutch course actually myself, and, um One of the girls there asked me, so do your clients normally want to learn Dutch or do they not want to learn Dutch?

Jelena: I think it’s not wanting, I think a lot of people who come with small kids just don’t have the time for it. There

Mickelle: is no time. That is what I tell people all the time. Laat ze wel

Kris: weten, Nederlands klinkt

Jelena: ook

Kris: gewoon

Jelena: echt

Kris: verschrikkelijk om

Jelena: te leren. You know, I, I like, I, I like the language. I hated it. . I really like it.

Jelena: So, no, I

Mickelle: like the language too. But what, um, what is interesting is that your first conversations when you’re talking about your kids are all about their interests and their needs, and so it’s really difficult to learn Dutch in that circumstance when it’s just your own survival or like your own decisions like.

Mickelle: It doesn’t matter. But when you’re dealing with young kids, that was my biggest learning was that you do have to, you don’t, it’s not a very safe environment to learn a language, if that makes sense. And so that’s what’s beautiful about here, of course, is that most people will speak English to you. But then for me as a mom, I have three.

Mickelle: Children who speak perfect Dutch, and I am terrible at Dutch. So, um, but moving on from that, I really, what would you advise people for housing? So there are some things that are common to look out for when you’re looking for a housing contract as well. For internationals.

Jelena: Yeah, exactly. I think it’s, uh, easy for people to fall into, uh, scams because there’s just a lot of them going around.

Jelena: Um, when I was moving, we got our first apartment, uh, we found it on marked plots, which I would not advise to anyone. Please don’t do it. Uh, we had luck. Um, because. Because. The person who was renting it, like, just didn’t want to deal with agents. And he had a lot of experience with, you know, renting and we read the contract really, really well.

Jelena: It all turned out well, but don’t, don’t do it. Just don’t do it. It’s not verified. Um, and Facebook groups are also. Yeah, don’t find places in Facebook groups and stuff like that. Um, I think as for a lot of other things in the Netherlands, it’s the best to like just get someone to do it for you, honestly.

Jelena: So a real estate agent that you can trust, um, obviously they’re not, it’s important to know who comes highly recommended and who’s trustworthy. Uh, we do have a really good network of real estate agents, especially here in, um, North Holland and, and, and this kind of around that area. where most expats that we work with come to live.

Jelena: I would say definitely work with an agent.

Mickelle: Okay. And then what I’ve noticed is that the, if you stay for a year, they, they, there’s a difference between a permanent, like, just like an employment. It’s kind of like, um, if people are renting exclusively to expats, you usually can’t live there long term. It’s usually going to explain why.

Mickelle: Yeah, perfect. That’s great. So

Kris: in the Dutch law, I think they changed it by the way. But it used to be, and a lot of people who rent out their homes still cling, literally, on that old law. When you sign a contract that exceeds two years, you get protection from the law. And that means that you have the right to, for example, that the, uh, real estate agent or the landlord cannot barge in and say like, Hey, I need my house back.

Kris: You need to go out in like a month or something like this. Uh, when there is, uh, when there are repairs beyond your, when there are repairs beyond your, um, limitations, the landlord has to do it. There is a certain protection in place, but that protection only comes after two years of renting. Landlords try to avoid that.

Kris: And this is where the short term, uh, contracts came in, which was half a year or a year. Also, in addition, mostly in the van start, uh, the municipality only agreed upon renting out houses if it was short term, because the landlords need to get some sort of permit and resource, some sort of approvement or approving of the municipal policy.

Kris: So if you, for example, had a home. or you wanted to rent it out to people, the municipal policy could say like, okay, but not longer, or we only want short stay. And this is where the half a year contracts came in. So it’s also based in law, but I think that the thing that Jelena and I always, always, always advise is just have your contract checked.

Kris: We do that, but there are also other services who do that. Have your contract checked, we will explain to you what you’re reading, because some contracts, actually some, most contracts are unnecessarily complex. Just to throw you off. And then we explain it in plain English, like I said, what are you actually reading, per clause.

Kris: And we had so much people were saying, oh my god, this helped me so much. Because, for example, a thing that Jolette and I are seeing, like, very much and very often, is, um, the checkup. So when you’re entering a building, The landlord should go with you through the house to note down all the possible things that needs repairment or are broken or whatever.

Kris: You take photos of it and you add it into the contract, so the lease contract or the buying contract. Some people just don’t even know about this and landlords do know that. So when they’re actually leaving at one point by the end of the lease period, the landlord is like, yeah, you broke that and now you can pay for it as well.

Kris: All that extra stress just gives you technically a mind block and also it gives an opportunity to take

Mickelle: advantage of. You never get your deposit back. That’s what I, anyone who moves here, I’m like, you’re never going to get your deposit back. Just so you know, they will find a way to get it

Kris: out of it just to get it back.

Kris: So, but all those little things, I just saying, you know, walk through the apartment prior to actually the start date of your lease contract, make photos of it. Uh, You have, even have like two weeks maximum to still email the landlord as in, Hey, uh, we missed something. I found this, it’s not caused by me. And then they also have to include it inside of the contract.

Kris: All these little things just gives you, in my humble opinion, a way more informed and therefore more confidence to enter the Dutch market

Mickelle: at one point. Yep. And would you say, um, to know that you’re going in, if you’re signing a one year contract, it’s very likely that they will not renew your contract. Is that good advice?

Mickelle: Or would you say, because this is what’s happened to a few of my friends. They come and they think from other countries and think, Oh, I’m a good renter. And they don’t understand this law or this, this thing about the Dutch market. And so then they just get kicked out of their house in a year because the landlord doesn’t want to renew or after two years, because they definitely don’t want to renew.

Mickelle: Like you said, they’re clinging onto this old law. Um, and so is that reasonable advice to say, either plan on being there short term? Less than two years. I would say it depends. Of course, yeah, yeah. But with the nuance of this market and this mindset that isn’t common around the world, is what, if there’s a broader advice, what would you say?

Kris: I would say literally, um, set yourself up to move around. Like a lot. There are ways to avoid this. And again, this is not advice. And if you act upon it, then do not come for us. We’re not insured for that. This is not legal advice. This is not legal advice. But, uh, there are ways. For example, if you are having a decent enough relationship with your landlord, and your contract expires, And I don’t want to extend you on paper, you can still make agreements in private, such as in, I want to stay a little bit longer until I find something new, and then you can lease it out again.

Kris: So then it will not be on contract, it would be more like a agreement between the two of you. But please be aware that it’s all always on more like a temporary basis. Um, it’s not completely compliant, but there are opportunities to buy yourself a little bit more time. And foremost, do not take it personally because, uh, the ground in, especially the Ronstadt, so like the city areas, it is just extremely expensive.

Kris: And sometimes your rent. Doesn’t even get close to the actual, um, value of the building itself. And they just want to either increase like a lot, which they cannot do it in the same contract, because you can only have a rental increase with a certain percentage per year. But it could be that they want to heavily increase the rent, which cannot be done on your contract.

Kris: So they’re just You know, they’re just terminating it or

Mickelle: just letting it expire. That’s good advice. And so not taking it personally is good advice anyway, especially coming of, again, we, we talk about Dutch directness, but it also applies here where there’s just landlords are maybe dealing with different pressures here than other places maybe.

Mickelle: Um, okay. Last thing I want to talk about is, um, pet relocation. What do people not think about?

Jelena: Um, so, uh, what do people not think about? Uh, I think they don’t realize how stressful it can be in the first place. Um, so for me personally, it was very difficult because we were moving in the middle of, the pandemic.

Jelena: It was 2021, uh, half of the flights, half of the actually airlines were not even flying between the Netherlands and Serbia. There was just one left and they did not carry pets. So I had to, you know, scramble to figure something out. And my dog ended up traveling like 24 hours in a van. with a random guy I’ve never seen in my life, um, who was transporting puppies for someone, and then my dog who absolutely hated him and barked at him, like, at every stop.

Jelena: So it was very stressful for all of us.

Mickelle: Yeah.

Jelena: Um, one thing is that You really need to understand what are the regulations when it comes to the country you’re coming from because the requirements are not the same for everyone. Um, some countries require different types of tests and some countries require vaccinations and all of these things that cannot be done last minute.

Jelena: So you need to think about it like a couple of months ahead, for sure. Um, if your dog is a puppy, I believe they can travel from 16 weeks old. Uh, so it can be like a tiny, tiny little puppy. Uh, it has to be a little bigger. And the other thing is, uh, work with your vet at home because normally they know exactly how things work.

Jelena: In most cases, your dog needs to be checked, uh, 24 hours before. The flight before the trip, uh, to get all the correct paperwork, um, and the declaration. Um, yeah, and the passport, their passport needs to be current, they need to be microchipped, uh, the tests need to be done. So it’s just, it’s a lot.

Mickelle: So I would say it’s a process that you can’t overlook.

Mickelle: Also some dog breeds are not accepted in the Netherlands and other countries too. So make sure first and foremost that your dog is approved. the kind of dog you have is accepted. Um,

Jelena: Yeah, they’re, they’re more highly regulated, I would say. So if it’s, uh, the dangerous dog breeds, there’s a list, and then you need to go to a behavior course with the dog and stuff like that.

Jelena: Um, and there’s also dog breeds that, um, airlines do not accept at all, like the dogs with flat noses, like pugs or French bulldogs and, uh, because of their breathing problem. So often airlines will not accept them. So

Mickelle: there’s

Jelena: one good thing. Oh, go ahead. No, no,

Mickelle: go ahead.

Jelena: Yeah. One good thing. I saw that there’s now a doggy airline in the US, um, where you just get to sit in the, you know, cabin with your dog and it’s all first class and it doesn’t matter how big the dog is.

Jelena: I think the tickets are something like four to 6, 000 in one direction. So it probably won’t be very, um, affordable very soon, but it’s, it’s also there out there.

Mickelle: Yeah. Well, they’re, they’re feeling a need as well. Okay. So Um, when someone’s considering a move to the Netherlands, they should hire you guys for their legal needs.

Mickelle: Um, and then. All the way through the process, it sounds like. So you can kind of be their partner from when they decide to move, even if they’re being taken care of by their employer, you can check contracts, make sure they’re in their best good, explain things in plain language. Um, who is your, is this your ideal, ideal client or have I described them or is there something missing?

Jelena: Yeah, most folks that we work with come here, um, for a job. They’re mostly highly skilled migrants, uh, or they’re coming on something like a freelance visa or to open a business here. Uh, so it’s mostly people who are very entrepreneurial and very adventurous, I would say. Um, so yeah, what we’re here to do is kind of take the stress out of the process and make sure that you’re enjoying it and you’re sure that.

Jelena: You’re checking all the boxes and everything is right from the moment you decide to move up until the moment you arrive here. And you need to check off all of these admin, you know, um, items off of your list, get registered in municipality, get your health insurance and get all of that. So

Kris: talking about checking boxes, we do have a checklist.

Kris: Yeah, we spent we spent so much time on developing that. It’s the starter kit. And because Jelena said, I wish I wish I had this when I was moving because she had like all these different documentations and papers. And so we literally made a visually attractive like ticking the box. What do you need to do when you’re here prior to work prior to moving?

Kris: So that’s nice. We call it a starter kit. Uh, that’s for free. So, uh, I mean, that helps guys just

Mickelle: so that helps. Okay. So we’ll link that below the starter kit that people can get started with. And then once they need to go deeper, they can reach out to you. Is that right?

Kris: Prior to that, Jelena, I have something exciting.

Kris: In our pipeline, we are developing a course, uh, with a Dutch teacher. Her name is, her company is called Yudachi. Uh, so that’s, that’s, that’s very, you know, on brand. And this course is going to cover everything in depth, like literally everything in depth from a visa explanation, but also a tax explanation, the legal aspects of an employment contract, what to focus on, you know, when you’re having a contract in front of your nose, and you’re like, can we even do this type of things?

Kris: Yeah. So we are still you know, brewing it brewing this course. We think it’s going to be there

Mickelle: around like autumn. Great. So when this podcast comes out, it should be almost available, if not ready and launched. Exactly.

Kris: And that one, that gives you the opportunity to, um, you know, really start getting accustomed with the things, uh, around like moving and how we do things in Netherlands from the comforts of your own home.

Kris: And of course we’ll never answer all your questions. I mean, that’s, that’s, that’s really important. impossible. Uh, and then you can always schedule a call with it. We’ll talk to Elena, uh, because she is our, uh, people, uh, relations, uh, person. She’s really good at having these conversations where you can explain your situation.

Kris: And from that point on, uh, you can either get like a package or take a product. And one of our products would be, for example, review your employment contract. You get a very nice memo where we explain or even perhaps warn you as in we’re not sure if this is like really compliant, you might want to talk this over with HR, for example.

Mickelle: That’s really great. So what I hear is there’s actually one more use case is if someone’s here already and they want you to look at their employment contract to see their rights, or if someone’s been fired or let go, that seems like another reason that someone from our community might reach out or if they’re looking to change their visa for some reason.

Kris: I think most of our clients are actually in the Netherlands, right?

Jelena: Yeah, this year it has changed so much. And I think it’s also because a lot of people that we worked with, um, last year who have come to the Netherlands are now coming back and saying, Hey, I’m changing my job, I’m buying a house, I’m doing all of these things.

Jelena: And they just reach out to us to check that everything is okay and to ask all the questions. So we’re definitely, um, becoming a go to address for them as well, uh, for people who are already here.

Mickelle: As we always say, you need people on your team as an international, and so it sounds like you guys are part of people’s team for being able to continue to live that life of freedom wherever they want.

Mickelle: So that’s really beautiful. Well, Kris and Jelena, that’s all I have for you today. Thank you so much for sharing your wealth of knowledge. Um, where can people reach you if they want to go deeper or contact you?

Jelena: Yeah, so you can see a lot of, uh, information on our Instagram page as well as our LinkedIn page.

Jelena: Uh, we can also, um, link those below and, uh, the easiest way to reach out to us is through email info at move to NL dot com.

Mickelle: Okay. And to everyone listening, please reach out to these ladies if you have questions, um, and they will also be part of our business membership. So you’ll, they will be available there, um, to, uh, ask questions and we’ll probably do some.

Mickelle: Uh, events with you guys in the coming, uh, few months. And so, uh, yeah, thank you for coming on you guys. I love your story. Thanks for sharing it with us and our listeners and to all the listeners. Thank you for joining us today on the House of Peregrine podcast. I look forward to the comments from this. Um, and thanks so much you two.

Jelena: Well, thank you so much for having us.

Mickelle: Bye. Okay. That’s it for today. I hope you’ve enjoyed our show. For the latest insights on living internationally, join us at HouseofPeregrine. com to find out how you can connect with our community. Let’s craft our life story with intention together.