Living Globally

Living Globally and Identity- A Conversation with Author Mariam Navaid Ottimofiore on Designing the Layers of Your Life as a Globally Mobile Family

Mickelle: Today I am very happy to have on the show Mariam Ottimofiore, someone who I deeply admire and a wisdom bearer for how to live well and intentionally as a globally mobile family.

Mickelle: Her two books, The Messy Mobile Life, and which is a beautiful guide for globally mobile families to create their life by design. And her most recent novel, The Guilty Can’t Say Goodbye, Three Women, Three Secrets, Three Broken Lives, are a testament to the depth of understanding she has after living in 10 different countries and becoming a mother while being abroad.

Mickelle: My favorite moment, of which there are so many, was when she spoke about how we speak into our children the cultures that they come from, so they can understand the complexities that make them who they are. In the context of living in a new country. As parents, we are the culture holders of our families when we live abroad.

Mickelle: And her framing of this aspect of global parenting was both healing and comforting, as it named something that I’ve always felt was an important part of living abroad with my own children, but could never quite articulate. This is a beautiful conversation and I am so thrilled to bring it to you today.

Mickelle: I hope you enjoy. Please feel free to send us a message and let us know what you think about the episode. Please feel free to share it with anyone you think could use the wisdom that Mariam shares with us today. Please follow along with us with everything we’re up to at House of Peregrine on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, and YouTube.

Mickelle: Our mission is to make your time living abroad intentional, beautiful, and more connected. Okay, on to today’s show. Mariam, welcome, welcome to the podcast. I am so excited to have you on today.

Mariam: Thank you so much, Mickelle, for having me. It’s my pleasure to be here. I want to start by just introduce us to you today and who, who and what you’re up to.

Mariam: Sure, sure. I’d love to. So my name is Mariam Ottimofiore, and I’m currently sitting here in my home in Pescais, Portugal just by the Atlantic Ocean, about 20 minutes south side of Lisbon. And yeah, this is country number 10 for me to live in. So it’s my 10th home. I am an author. a writer, a researcher, and an economist by profession.

Mariam: And I’ve written two books on global living. And as I mentioned, I moved around a lot. I’m also a third culture kid and I have grown up in, well, I was born in Pakistan and then grown up in Bahrain, the United States and in Pakistan, and then just kind of continued moving around.

Mickelle: Right. And I want to I really want to get to that.

Mickelle: So I want to hear the story. We’re going to go into your story of how you’ve formed what has culminated in these two great books from a very unique perspective of someone who’s lived in so many countries. And as you said, you’re a third culture kid now raising. three, third culture kids. And so I love your perspective and you’ve definitely lived, lived what you now are bringing to the surface, which I really, really love.

Mickelle: And so you were starting to tell us and I cut you off, sorry. Start from the beginning, where were you born and then take us briefly through your journey throughout the world.

Mariam: Sure, sure. I was going to give you the short version first and then launch into, you know, the longer, more messy version. But yes, definitely.

Mariam: It’s so hard to know where to pick up and where to stop, right? As I, as I was mentioning, I, my, my, my childhood, my global childhood of Bahrain New York in the U S and then in Pakistan. And so by the age of 10, I had lived in all three and I had grown up bilingual in Urdu, which is what we speak.

Mariam: You know, inside our home with my Pakistani parent and English, of course, outside the home with our friends, neighbors, and family. You know colleagues, et cetera. So being bilingual pretty much from birth was a massive advantage that I completely took for granted. I thought all families are like this.

Mariam: It was only later I realized that this was such a big gift for life.

Mickelle: Can I, can I ask, can I ask why your family was living between those countries? Oh,

Mariam: yes, of course. This was for my dad’s career. My dad. I was a banker and it was his banking career that us you know moving from one country to the next And my parents made sure they spoke urdu which was their native language with us me and my sister Inside our home and so so that we never you know, we wouldn’t forget it.

Mariam: And and of course, but we were So when we were schooled or educated, our academic language was a different language, and so we spent much of our day in English at school, and became bilingual as a result of, of, of that experience.

Mickelle: So your parents were

Mariam: Yes, yes, definitely. So back in the 80s, when I was born, it was my parents who were the expats, and I just joined them on their global adventure.

Mickelle: Yeah. So it’s, you’ve never known anything different.

Mariam: I have never known anything different. I, I never thought there was anything different about us. I grew up having pictures of Central Park in our home in Pakistan, much later. I mean, everything, my parents, there were always so many reminders of our global childhood.

Mariam: They never let us forget it, even when they took us from one place to the next. It was always a continuation of our journey. It would, they never let us forget. Forget who we were, what we had experienced, which I really appreciate now kind of try to do the same for my three kids as well, because Children need as you know, to hear those stories from their parents.

Mariam: They need that storytelling thread come through their lives, especially for Children who are living a globally mobile childhood. But this is something I truly do appreciate. Now. And I’m very happy that that we had a chance to do that.

Mickelle: That’s so beautiful and such a really nice reminder that we are the story keepers for our children.

Mickelle: And your parents did that especially well. And so that’s a legacy you are now carrying on, which is really beautiful. So, When it came time for you to make a decision of where you would go to university or, you know, basically your big life transition, maybe it felt just totally normal to go to another country.

Mickelle: In

Mariam: certain ways, yes. I was always going to be the one who was going to dream big and travel the world and do my own thing and move to a new country. And in certain ways no Pakistani society, it definitely, it does not. This is definitely not the norm. I belong to a very privileged, you know, minority.

Mariam: I don’t know what the percentage would be, but maybe let’s say less than 5 percent of Pakistani families would, you know, be able to be privileged enough to send their daughter abroad and keep in mind, I say daughter specifically because there’s an added layer to that, you know, if it’s your son, it’s different.

Mariam: He’s going to be the breadwinner. Right. But why would you send a daughter abroad? So. There are a lot of cultural taboos and a lot of, you know, societal restrictions that sometimes are placed even on third culture kids like myself. And I think what was amazing and what I love is that my parents and my family never stopped me.

Mariam: My grandparents never stopped me. It was just, of course you’re going to go, of course you can go anywhere you want, you know, the world is your oyster. So I’m very glad I was born in a family where education was Very much, no, not debated. And it was not debated who gets to go abroad, and it was, you know, just taken almost for granted.

Mariam: So I definitely was living in Karachi with my parents when I was you know at the age of 18 I had just given my A Levels, which is the British system of your ic, I, I GCSEs your levels and A levels. And then I had applied to colleges all over the world, everywhere from Australia to Canada, to the U.

Mariam: S. To England, to South Africa. And I happened to get into my top choice, which happened to be in Massachusetts. And so there I was on a plane by myself, and my parents couldn’t come and drop me, you know.

Mickelle: I’d love you to slow down right here

Mickelle: because this, tell us this story about when, when you were coming to the United States to school.

Mickelle: I, I, I think this is such a beautiful story.

Mariam: Yeah, it was, it was truly the defining moment where, you know, I was finally moving for myself, it was the first time I was taking control of my own story. And it was exhilarating. I think if you have a one way ticket in your hand and you’re like, That is the most exhilarating experience of your life.

Mariam: And that’s what I had. I had a one way ticket in my hand to Boston’s Logan airport. And I was so excited. I had my uncle from Texas, a whole other country come and meet me and then drive me to my college in Massachusetts. And then I was so excited. I forgot to like inform my parents, but I just wanted to say that when I did arrive back in the U S it was shortly after nine 11, I was in Boston.

Mariam: So, you know, the U. S. Had changed overnight. And for someone like myself, who’s a Pakistani Muslim brown woman of color. This definitely meant that I had to be aware of off the new reality. I had just stepped into and I remember one of the first things was, you know, having a meeting on campus on how to handle it.

Mariam: If I am ever, you know, it was a meeting held for students, Muslim students, Arab students, anybody who was visibly different. And how to handle any cases of racism, Islamophobia, or just any, you know, discrimination in any, you know, shape or form. And I think, you know, that was a tough experience to be thrown into straight off the bat.

Mariam: But then again, that’s how you learn how to be your best advocate. Advocate for yourself in a new culture, in a completely new environment, and put your best foot forward. And I think. In certain times, we can be too afraid to show who we really are, and post 9 11 in the U. S. was one of those times. And, you know, as a teenager, living, you know, away from home for the first time, this was a huge experience that shaped me and my world, and I knew that if I can do this, that I would be able to do this anywhere else in the world.

Mariam: I’d be able to live in any culture in any language because it was such a true test of your abilities to stay true to yourself, while maybe not feeling comfortable to show who you are.

Mickelle: I would say it was downright dangerous to maybe admit who you were, even though You are who you are through your looks.

Mickelle: But if you were to advocate for yourself, it was, you know, like the height of diplomacy, I think you were

Mariam: in the I was Mickelle. You’re absolutely right. And that really influenced my decision. I ended up majoring in political science at you know, like college because of everything that was happening around me, I, it was another attempt to sort of make sense of the world and sort of feel like, you know, You know, how do I grasp what is happening?

Mariam: So definitely it shaped me in so many different ways. And I think that it’s, it’s, it’s worth sharing because, you know, when we move abroad, we just don’t know what’s going to happen, right? We get thrown into these situations. Maybe you move to a country and there’s just been a coup. You know, I mean, anything is possible.

Mariam: So you really have to be. On your best, literally sometimes just from day one. And that was my experience flying into, flying into Logan airport.

Mickelle: Did your parents? Give you, they had lived in New York previously, right? Do I have that right? And so did they have any advice for you about being a Pakistani woman living in the United States or did they let you figure that out yourself?

Mariam: They did have advice for me. Their advice was always just do your best. You know, you can never go wrong if you do your best and just be who you are. My parents were pretty confident that I knew what my roots were and I could present myself in in Authentic and, you know, engaging way. And so I think that, you know, that was what they had taught me and they placed so much trust in me, which I get, I didn’t really appreciate back then at the age of 18, almost 19.

Mariam: But now I think, Oh my gosh, just the thought of putting my kids, you know, on a plane themselves you know, and not dropping them, being able to drop them to college. That was, that was a big, big, big deal for them. So they definitely put a lot of trust and faith in me. And I think I just tapped into that each time I felt uncomfortable or out of my depth, because I definitely did in certain times, but then they also gave me the freedom to figure things out.

Mariam: They knew this was going to be my journey on my terms in a different time and in a different place. And in almost a country that, like I said, had changed overnight. So they knew my experience was also going to be different and there was room for it to be both.

Mickelle: Yeah. And did they ever question your decision because of the turbulent times?

Mickelle: Were they like, are you sure?

Mariam: That’s a good question. I think we all questioned the decision initially. I remember I was one of the last few students to get a student visa because the U. S. was about to invade Afghanistan, which was right next door, and use Pakistan and To launch its offensive there.

Mariam: So it was a crazy time and many students who had gained admission into US universities at the time were not granted visas, you know, to actually go there. So I was one of the lucky few who got the visa right before 9 11 had happened. You know, had it been just a few weeks later or a month later, I might not have made it.

Mariam: So I think I mentioned all of this because. Often we don’t get to hear, you know, people of color what they go through. And it was a very, what I would really like to say is that, you know, the tragedy that was 9 11 was a tragedy, but the Islamophobia in the U S that happened as a result of that tragedy.

Mariam: And the persecution of people based on their faith being maligned for that. That was something I was not prepared for. I was not prepared that when I am traveling through JFK, I’m going to be pulled aside to a different queue. I’m going to be asked, you know, based on my Pakistani passport, do you know where Osama bin Laden is hiding?

Mariam: What 18 year old would be prepared for that? Right. Because it was simply absurd. And so, you know, those are the kinds of experiences that you, they, well, they, they hopefully don’t break you. They hopefully make you, but you know, you are thrown into the world and the world is messy. And, you know, you have to swim through it.

Mariam: And of course, you know, I, you know, I would always be able to answer questions, but it was the unfairness of the being pulled out of random because you’re brown because of your passport, because your passport opens up on the wrong side, you know, every little thing that marks you as. The other is a very interesting process to go through these days.

Mariam: I traveled on my Italian passport and I can tell you, MIckelle, the treatment I receive is completely different. And I’m no, I’m still the same person, right? Whether I have a green Pakistani passport or a red, you Italian passport. But if I’m an Italian, I get flirted with, I get congratulated on the Azuri’s latest football win.

Mariam: You know, as opposed to being asked for Osama bin Laden might be hiding. So, you know, those are some of the experiences I’ve had as a global nomad, but I’m very grateful for these experiences because you get to see privilege up front. You get to experience both sides of it and that’s when you know that it exists.

Mickelle: And airports are almost the ultimate they’re the ultimate reminder that you’re an, that you’re an outsider or you’re an insider, depending on where you are. Thank you for sharing all of that. And I think my, I grew up in the U S obviously, and I was at university when 9 11 happened and I had the privilege, I think, of taking a lot of Middle East studies classes the two years before, and I remember just being like completely shocked that it felt like we were all being lied to because of you know, for whatever reason.

Mickelle: But having that little bit of else, you know, maybe back then it wasn’t such common knowledge helps me to definitely see. a little bit more than the people around me. Yeah. With my first kind of introduction to the cults and culture, as I always say. And so it was, it was a devastating time all around, but I was a similar age at that time from the inside and it was just a wild time.

Mickelle: So, but I commend your bravery. I do not think, I think that you, you did an amazing thing by coming Now we all get to benefit because it gave you the perspective you have now. And so it’s very beautiful. So, and you use the word messy, dangerous, which I, I really appreciate when you said the world is messy instead of dangerous or, you know, messed up or something it is, it’s messy.

Mickelle: And that can be beautiful and that can be dangerous, but I really appreciate everything you’re, you are saying. Okay. So after Boston, you decided to fly to.

Mariam: I went to the UK to do my junior year abroad. So my third year of of college that is when I decided I was also majoring in economics and I wanted to study the EU model more specifically.

Mariam: And in the U S they weren’t really courses targeted at the European economic integration or how they had done that. And I had wanted to use. The EU model as a basis to argue for something similar to be set up in South Asia for the South Asian economies. So in order to do all of that, I decided to take a junior abroad and go to the UK for, for a year.

Mariam: And so I did that. I didn’t want to, I got into LSE, didn’t want to go to LSE. I decided to go to Brighton, which is, you know, down in Sussex and the University of Sussex had a really great program for economics and for developmental studies as well. So that’s why I chose to go there. So I met my husband in Sussex By the Brighton, you know, beach it was a very surreal feeling.

Mariam: I was, you know, of course, surrounded by lots of international students and the English like to, you know, alphabetize everything. So they placed us all in one room, you know, who, everyone who had their last name, you know, starting alphabetically with this, you know, one, one batch. And so, you know, I was an N and he was an O and that’s how we ended up in the same.

Mariam: in the same orientation class together. Nice.

Mickelle: And so you met him and that probably changed some things about, because now you’re two people in love in a different country outside of your countries.

Mariam: Yes. It it It brought in a lot more complexity into our life and a lot more joy, of course, as well.

Mariam: For people who’ve been in multicultural, you know, relationships or marriages, they know that it is such an exercise in joining two very different lives and backgrounds and cultures and languages together. And in our case, we weren’t just doing it with two. He was bilingual and bicultural between German culture and Italian culture.

Mariam: And for me, it was a bit more of the same with Pakistani culture and American culture. And, you know, and so we had four native languages. When we got together, you know I was a fluent speaker of Urdu and English and it was Italian and German for him. So, you know, it it helped us. We love the fusion of cultures.

Mariam: We think it’s such a beautiful thing. And we knew that our lives were being enriched immediately, but as many cross cultural couples will tell you, it comes with its own fair share of challenges as well. In our case, you know, we were different religions. We were different, everything. We were different. You know different language, nationality, religion, anything you could pick was different for us.

Mariam: And that also meant that there were some barriers that we had to work our way through. There were societal expectations. Pressures, you know, things that we had to do to make sure that we could be together. And that was a whole journey in and of itself. I do detail some of it in my first book, This Messy Mobile Life, because it’s also a guidebook for other multicultural families who might be going through these same challenges.

Mariam: So I discussed specifically the role of religion, culture. And language in that book, because these are such like complex, you know, things to work through, that it made sense to go through on a deeper level in a book where you can sit and dissect, you know, everything and then share what worked for us and what didn’t.

Mariam: And what mindset we went into with it. But I do have to say that we were very lucky. We had the support of all four of our parents who supported our multicultural marriage. And we got married about three years after we met in the UK. And, you know, it was simply beautiful to see our cultures coming together.

Mariam: I think that for me is the single biggest thing that has brought so much joy and continues to bring so much joy now that we have three kids every day to remind us of this fusion and this mix. So I always think that no matter how hard it seems, it’s always worth it.

Mickelle: And you do have to have a certain mindset, I think.

Mickelle: And, and I think anyone who’s done this, and I’ve only watched people do this, it really, would you say, it helps you get really clear on what’s important to you and what parts of your own culture you are not? you want to keep and want to maybe not compromise, but embrace from the other person’s culture.

Mariam: Definitely. Definitely. It really helps you take a look at your own culture and what you value and what you would like to continue, what matters to you, what makes sense to you, what you’d like to, you know, continue doing. And what doesn’t make sense to you? What are some of the things you’re only doing because other people are doing it or because society tells you that’s what you should be doing?

Mariam: You know, living abroad gives you that freedom to distinguish between the two. And then being in a multicultural relationship or a multicultural marriage allows you to adopt, to integrate. Things that feel right to you that you want to include in your life and to let go of some of the things that bring you no joy that you were only doing to keep up with societal expectations.

Mariam: So we’ve definitely had a lot of these things. We let go of a lot of things that didn’t work for us, but we kept a lot of things and inculcated new traditions that we really found a lot of meaning and joy. Yeah, it’s, it’s

Mickelle: making your own, would you, would you call Categorize it as making it your own culture within your family.

Mariam: Absolutely. Absolutely. I liken it to something like, you know, and that’s actually the subtitle of my book, I call it creating your life by design where you are actively and consciously thinking about the different cultural influences in your life and you’re pulling them in, into your design and layering them into who you are very consciously, you know?

Mariam: Awesome. That is what we’ve done, you know, certain aspects of my culture, my traditions, my religion, I have very consciously inculcated them into our family design, into our family life. And there have been so, so many things I have let go off. For example, when my daughter was born in Singapore, I didn’t do so many of the traditions you’re supposed to do on a newborn because I’m sitting in Singapore and I just had a high risk pregnancy.

Mariam: Pregnancy. I’m not going to go and shave her head because people will tell me, or aunties will tell me that it’s going to come back thicker. You should shave your head. No, I think her hair is perfectly thick enough. Thank you very much. So, you know, it doesn’t make sense. You don’t do it. You do what makes sense to you.

Mariam: And so, you know, that’s some, that’s definitely something we’ve done. And I think that that has really enriched us. It has made us happier and has made us, you know, made our journey so incredible because we are actively becoming a mesh of all the different places that we live in.

Mickelle: So you’re, you’ve alluded to it already.

Mickelle: So you had your. Your oldest was born in Singapore. Yes, that’s correct. And she’s now 12. Yes. And so you had a baby in a country that you, I believe you had just moved there.

Mariam: Is that? I had, I had, that’s right. I was pregnant. We were living in Denmark at the time when I found out I was pregnant with her.

Mariam: And Copenhagen had been our home. We had been there for four years and we weren’t really, you know, thinking we were going to move, especially not when we found out that we were pregnant or that I was pregnant. And as life has it, my husband came home with a big box of Danish pastries one day and said, what do you think about moving to Singapore?

Mariam: And, you know, it was so funny cause I, I had to kind of had, I’d had Pretty turbulent pregnancy, like the first trimester was not going well at all. And once I had crossed the first trimester, the midwife had told me in Danish, okay, now don’t plan anything big or exciting for the next few months. You need to stay put, you need to make sure that the baby’s doing well.

Mariam: And that was the day my husband came home with a Danish box of past, right? So I just have to laugh about it in hindsight because, you know. People think that when you’re pregnant, that’s when you’re going to be the most stable. But that has been anything but our story. We have been super mobile. Our joke is each time I’m pregnant, we move because that’s what’s happened.

Mariam: But, you know, moving your life when you’re expecting life is a very Emotional process. I had to say goodbye to my old life in Copenhagen while this new life was growing inside of me. And it was the hardest thing I’ve done, MIckelle, and I felt that I was leaving part of myself behind and yet taking something so valuable and amazing with me was as if, you know, Denmark had given me a gift.

Mariam: I was taking it with me, but if you had all these mixed emotions, bittersweet, and then we landed in Singapore, we left, and this was in the month of December. So we left Denmark and, you know, a very chilly Denmark and landed in the tropical heat where you’re sweating in places you don’t, you didn’t know you could sweat, you know?

Mariam: And I remember just sitting, eating ice cubes, like just the air conditioning wouldn’t help, nothing. It was just such a crazy transition for us, but even more so than that, I had quit my job in Denmark. I had resigned. I was working as an economist in oil trading, and I’d given that up at the age of 29. Who does that?

Mariam: I moved to Singapore. And I remember not only were we in a new country, well we were in a new country and I was unemployed and I was five months pregnant and I was eating ice cubes because I couldn’t stop sweating. So it was really quite an interesting mix of emotions from every possible angle. And five months later, or four months later, I gave birth to our daughter in Singapore.

Mickelle: Yeah, in

Mariam: a country never been to before, if I’m not mistaken. I had visited Singapore once before. My cousin had been living there, so I did have a chance to visit it. But unfortunately, that visit only made me think, I don’t want to live here.

Mickelle: And so, so you guys, You guys must have a matrix. Obviously, it was a good enough offer for your partner, but those are big decisions when they come.

Mickelle: When the box of danishes comes and the partner says, what do you think now process all on its own? You always know what’s the possibility if you’re living. This life. So do you guys have a process for deciding if you’re going to take?

Mariam: We do. We do. I mean, first of all, it has to make sense for, you know, the whole family as well.

Mariam: So it should make sense, not just on a professional level, but also on a personal level. And I couldn’t argue that Singapore, you know, didn’t have great medical facilities or healthcare or anything that I would need. I knew that Singapore had. State of the art facilities, state of the art, amazing doctors, amazing healthcare.

Mariam: So I knew I would be in safe hands especially because I, all my pregnancies have been high risk, so this was always a big factor for me. So I couldn’t really, you know, fault. Singapore on, on, on this aspect. And I knew that it was a very safe and a multicultural place to be. So this was the part that I really enjoyed.

Mariam: In fact, most I love that there were four national languages. I love that there was so much diversity in food and culture and cuisine and people. That is really where I learned Singapore taught me the true value of multiculturalism and how to express that in society so that everyone feels included.

Mariam: Like you don’t just celebrate one holiday. You celebrate every holiday. Right. And not just do you get the day off, but you’re actually invited to go to people’s houses to celebrate, you know, whether it’s the lunar new year or whether it’s either, or whether it’s Diwali or whether it’s, you know, some of the high or, or the Buddhist holidays, you know, you, you celebrate everything.

Mariam: So you really open yourself up. It’s not just a holiday. People celebrating in separate groups. It’s actually communities coming together to celebrate with each other. So I found that so refreshing. So, you know, I’m always someone who does keep an open mind. And as much as I like Denmark and as much as Denmark was my home, it was nothing tying us to Denmark.

Mariam: We were there simply for you know, for, for job, for our jobs and for, you know, work related reasons. There was this impulse to go see more of the world and to bring up our kids in equally diverse countries. And unfortunately, Denmark is quite homogenous. And so, you know, as much as I wanted to give birth there, and I’m not sure how raising a mixed child is You know, how easy that would have been in Denmark.

Mariam: In hindsight, it was so much easier in Singapore. It was so effortless in Singapore. Our kid never stood out in Singapore. In fact, everybody was half this, one fourth is born here, dad is from here, you know, and so that was our norm. And of course she got to go to a bilingual, you know, preschool with Mandarin and English.

Mariam: And we thought this is the best start to parenthood we could have

Mickelle: had. Nice. But there was another transition in there. That we kind of glossed over and this was the first time you were what they call a trailing spouse in a way where you were only there for your partner’s job. You were doing the very important work of, you know, integrating and, but how did that, that was a new phase for you.

Mariam: That was tough. It wasn’t technically the first time because in Denmark, I too was, you know, I don’t like to use the word trailing spouse, Mikel. I’ll be very, yeah, tell me, tell me about that. Mad, I hate the term. Yeah, me too. But, because the reason is I’ve never trailed, you know, so call me a trailblazing spouse, please, because that’s what I’ve done.

Mariam: I have trailblazed every new country that I have to, and created a new life for us there. You know, and in fact, I know the country then better than my husband who was stuck in, you know, the office all day. And I speak the language better than him. And I know the shortcut to school and I know where to buy the best avocados.

Mariam: That is what I mean, trailblazing, right? I’m not trailing anybody. And I think it’s important. Like we never go into this go into a new adventure with the mindset that go with your job. That’s making us move to country X and I’m just following along. No, that is not how we approach things. We are partners in the decision making process and we are, you know, equal partners, right?

Mariam: You’re an expat. I’m an expat, you know, nobody’s trailing anybody. We are making two, making a decision and, you know, to mature adults that this is going to be a good idea for us, for our family, let’s do it. So I really don’t. I never use this word to define myself. I feel it’s quite a derogatory term in 2024, especially.

Mariam: So yeah, I, and the simple truth was I didn’t trail. I just, I, you know, I had to do the bulk of the hard work, you know, without any set framework, without a community. And most people, they, they don’t. That’s what they have to do. Like, that’s what they do, right. The accompanying spouses which is the, you know, how the diplomatic community now calls them, you know, accompanying spouses.

Mariam: So perhaps you can tell me better. Right. I think but you know, the thing is, but this is why Singapore was so challenging. Because in Singapore, I couldn’t do anything because my husband was the main breadwinner. So like the phone account was in his name, the wifi or the internet was, everything was in his name.

Mariam: Just to change our monthly plan. I couldn’t do that. They’d be like, can you please put the main account holder on the phone? And I got so frustrated and told him fine. Well, you know what, you’ll get to handle all the admin. Cause I literally can’t do it. They won’t talk to me. They want to talk to you. So you do it, you know, You do it.

Mariam: It was, it was very, very frustrating. Singapore from that angle was you know, very frustrating that I didn’t have many rights. I was there as a dependent on a dependent visa and that was a big, big blow to sort of, you know, Your head around, like, how do I function if they won’t even let me change the internet plan?

Mariam: Right? It’s, it can be quite a shock. Yeah.

Mickelle: And that’s, I’ve seen that be devastating in many cases, actually for many reasons. And I think what you’re touching on and I love how you’ve rephrased, I also find it very offensive trailing spouse, but what I love is that you’re trying to change the paradigm around.

Mickelle: these notions in the international community, because When I say trailing spouse, everyone knows what I’m talking about. Maybe no one agrees, but I don’t know what we’re talking about. But trailblazing spouse is one thing, accompanying spouse. But the truth is in the end, that person is doing the work of many, many people on top of what they would normally be doing is in their adult life.

Mickelle: And so it’s an extra burden, but also, of course, everyone does it for Because they want to, it’s part of the values. What I’ve seen, and I want you to kind of talk to me about this a little bit, is that it really can have devastating effects on the relationship.

Mariam: Yeah, it can. And it does. And let’s be honest, it does.

Mariam: You know, there’s a lot of resentment that can come up as a result. Of this inequality when you do go abroad, but you find out you’re not on an equal footing. I think you have to be really, really honest and really communicate and make sure that you and your partner are on the same page. I have been very vocal about the frustrations I’ve faced, the lack of opportunities or the fact.

Mariam: That how difficult it is for me to get certain things done in a different country, you know, it’s like the odds are stacked up against you. And ironically, and I can talk a little bit about it, but our next destination, which was Dubai.

Mickelle: I really like this. Go ahead and.

Mariam: It was actually even worse, MIckelle, because you know what, in Singapore, I couldn’t do things because I was the dependent, right?

Mariam: Okay, frustrating, but that’s how it is. You moan about it, but then you accept it. But in Dubai, if I, as the brown woman, tried to get something done, the answer might be no. But then when my white husband asks the same plumber to do the same job, the answer might be yes. So, you know, then you realize, wait a minute but then the husband gets charged more and I get charged less.

Mariam: So now you’ve got to do the conundrum of who takes this decision to call the plumber because, you know, race, privilege. Class foreigner expectations of how much can one pay? Everything is at play, right? Everything is on the table and you got gonna maybe get treated differently depending on whether husband or wife, you know, have these discussions and have these Conversations with the plumber on how to fix a leaking pipe.

Mariam: This had a really big impact

Mickelle: on you though. As I recall, or what I’ve heard is that you, this was a big change for you and your trajectory.

Mariam: It was I was not ready to leave Singapore. I didn’t want to leave Singapore. We were there for three years and yes, it’s. Yes, it can be boring. Yes, it can be sterile.

Mariam: Yes. It’s super clean. It’s cleaner than Switzerland. You can eat off the floor in Chinatown. But I did appreciate it for everything that I had mentioned. It’s multiculturalism and it’s multilingualism as well. It gave me the courage to start off our multilingual journey of parenting, which I was very appreciative of, and I didn’t want to move to Dubai.

Mariam: I made my husband turn down the job offer. Until of course, you know, it, it, it, It made sense for him from a professional point of view at the job, and it made sense for us from a personal point of view, because I was pregnant with baby number two at the time, and I knew that Dubai had good health care again, another high risk pregnancy, other you know, Huge thing to sort out medical care and find the right OBGYN and do all of that.

Mariam: And I knew that Dubai had all these facilities, but my problem with Dubai was more on a intellectual and on a personal level, I didn’t agree or appreciate their human rights record, especially when it came to the construction workers who were Pakistani, who were Indian, who were Bangladeshi, Or Sir Lunkin, who were building all these high risers, high rises and skyscrapers, and then had absolutely no rights whatsoever.

Mariam: So that’s why I didn’t want to move there. And I was guilty of judging a place even before I had landed there. And I had such a big bias in my head and so many prejudices. And when I arrived there, of course I was miserable. I arrived there in the August. You know, heat, a 45 degree heat, five months, almost six months pregnant.

Mariam: And I hated it. I just wanted to turn back and go back to Singapore where a new tropical bird would sing good morning to us every day. And I realized that I really had to work so hard at living in Dubai. And this might be true for so many of us. Sometimes we move to a place which isn’t a good fit for us.

Mariam: So we have to work doubly hard to make it work. And about two years in, I could feel. A difference happening, but could feel that while before I had, you know, been so quick to criticize and so quick to complain and so quick to judge, I was actually now thinking, okay, this place is not perfect. It’s flawed, but now I’m here.

Mariam: So what can I do about it? How can I help? How can I actually assess the situation on the ground and maybe make a change and maybe not be all talk and maybe be all, you know, a bit more action. And so I started working. To understand the kind of challenges that these migrant workers faced in Dubai. And of course, you know, they weren’t being called expats.

Mariam: I was called an expat, but what was the difference between them and me? They were also there for better economic opportunities. We were there for better economic opportunities. They were facing culture shock. We were facing culture shock. They were away from their families. We were away from our families.

Mariam: We had so much in common, even though we belonged. Economically to a different, you know strata of society. And that’s why they get, get called migrant workers and we get called fancy expats. So I started writing about the other expats as I called them while I lived in Dubai, and I raised a lot of awareness, did a lot of research and made sure that I took their voices to global mobility conferences, like the families and global Transition conference conference in the Hague in the Netherlands in 2018.

Mariam: I presented their stories and they obviously don’t have the means or the income by a ticket to go to the Hague, but I did and I made sure that my presentation. Included their voices. I interviewed them in Urdu and Hindi at this book Bengali. And I made sure that we could see how much in the globally mobile world that we all have in common.

Mariam: Because you’ll never read these stories in expert magazines. You might not hear them on podcasts. You really need to have access to them. And it’s, it’s a question of accessibility and it’s a question of privilege and it’s a question of who does not have a seat at the table. And who needs to have a seat at the table and how do we pull out that seat?

Mariam: Right. And bring them to share their stories, because if we only look at global mobility from a very privileged Western white point of view, we’re kind of missing half the story. So it’s important to hear all kinds of tales of moving and migration and displacement and see. What do we have in common and what can we learn from the parts, you know, and from our stories that we share.

Mariam: So that’s something I was very passionate about and glad I got to do that in Dubai.

Mickelle: Yeah. I always tell the story of moving here opened my eyes to migration in general because I always thought, and I did it the easy way, the privileged way, and it was still really incredibly hard. I can’t imagine what happens otherwise.

Mickelle: And so that was a connecting moment for me and people who’ve listened to the podcast know. Yeah. But you’ve had that on such a grand scale. That’s really, really beautiful. And so what did that do for your career? Because you were working as an economist in before you had your first daughter. Now you’re a writer and an activist suddenly.

Mariam: I think that I, it really helped me come into my own. It really helped me to. Be vocal and not shy away from sometimes topics that people, other people find very uncomfortable. You know, we’ve dealt into a bit of uncomfortable, you know, topics, whether it was nine to post nine 11, whether it’s hard for it, I feel that you’ve created such a safe space.

Mariam: And I trust, you know, that, you know your, your curiosity and genuine, genuineness to learn and listen is, it’s so like genuine and authentic. And I think that’s the difference when you create such a space, you invite people to come in for honest conversation and not just some glossy version of living abroad, you know, and like I said, I’m all about the messy, I’m all about the realness of what we’re doing.

Mariam: And so it’s really refreshing to be able to just. That’s these uncomfortable parts of our journey. And of course, these are the ones that lead the most growth, right? So coming back to your question though, yes, I, I quit my corporate career once I became a mom and I, you know, parenthood was a big turning point for me but I made that decision quite consciously that now I was gonna do something that I could actually do without working crazy hours and sort of.

Mariam: Do it the other way around. Like my career should compliment my life. Right. And not the other way around. Like I shouldn’t be working so hard to make myself, you know fit into a career that clearly I, I just couldn’t keep up with. So because of moving around so much, I decided I needed a portable career, something I could take with me no matter where I was.

Mariam: Living or, you know, which corner of the world I was in and just continue doing that. And that’s what led me to writing. And I got started in Singapore. I was writing for some expat and travel magazines in Singapore, Lifestyle and Appetize. And it just continued, but it wasn’t until I reached Dubai that I had the confidence to set up my own blog, my own writing services, my own website.

Mariam: And you know, as much as I hated Dubai, as much as I was against moving to Dubai, Dubai, with its fancy skyscrapers, gave me the incentive to dream big. And That is something I was a very grateful for. You know, no place is perfect. I’ve detailed so many imperfections of the place to you, but let me talk a little bit about what that place did give to me.

Mariam: It was the incentive to imagine yourself at the best and and go for it. Like, if you’re, if you don’t ask, the answer will always be no. If you don’t do it, you’ll never know. And Dubai has this confidence that rubbed off of me. And I said, I’m going to do the same thing. I’m going to do this. I’m going to do what I’ve always said.

Mariam: I wanted to do, which was to be a writer, which was to write full time, which was part time. Published books, which was to write about all these things that we’ve been talking about, the face of expat life and moving and migration, and who do we become as a result of all these experiences. So all of this started for me in Dubai in 2016.

Mariam: I set up my, you know, my, my writing services. I was doing freelance writing for a lot of magazines. I was on the Oprah Winfrey network as a result of someone having read a blog. And that’s the thing. You don’t know who’s reading. Your work, you think it’s just your mom perhaps is reading your blog, but once you put something out there, it’s out there and you don’t know who’s reading it, whether it’s a producer at OWN or it’s, you know, somebody who wants to somebody at time out to buy who, who thinks you’re perfect for their magazine and wants to interview you or write about your thoughts or invite you to share your thoughts.

Mariam: So many opportunities opened up for me in Dubai that when we left after our four years there, I was so grateful for everything that that city had given to me in return and had also taught me in return.

Mickelle: Really nice. And so you took it. It seems like there’s this alchemical process that you have now identified that happens in each city where you take a part or you incorporate part of it into your life story, but also it just changes you.

Mickelle: And it seems like you’ve identified and have started to learn how to maybe incorporate that and use it to your advantage.

Mariam: Definitely. Definitely. I think every place gives something to us and I think it becomes part of who we are, it becomes part of our DNA. And, you know, initially I used to think, MIckelle, that every place I leave, that I am leaving part of myself behind.

Mariam: And while that was true, I realize now that I’m also taking part of that place with me. No matter where I go next. And so instead of always focusing on what I was losing, I started focusing on what I was gaining and how every place came with me you know, in my future adventures. So it’s a, it’s a, it’s a very subtle mind shift, but it’s about really understanding that we are so privileged to experience so much of the world and being conscious about it and really.

Mariam: Acknowledging the influence that each place has on you and how it shapes you is a very healthy process because you’re constantly developing. Your ideas are changing. Your views are changing. And then you don’t know where it’s all coming from. Did I start looking at taxation so unfavorably when I was being taxed 56 percent in Copenhagen?

Mariam: Or Was it when I paid zero tax in Dubai that I started thinking deeply about the benefits of taxation? You know, you’re, you’re, you’re constantly changing. And so this is an important exercise for people on the move to step down and chart. All their different layers, their different influences and how each place shapes them.

Mickelle: I also want to ask, do you, I really believe that it can be a two way process. So contributing to where you’re always contributing wherever you are, I think. But what, I love how you put things. So I want to ask you this question specifically, what do you think people who are living internationally bring to a place.

Mickelle: Obviously their culture, obviously their different point of view, but tell me what you think about that, because I feel like that’s been my realization is I take something, I gain, and I also give wherever I am.

Mariam: Very true. Very true. It definitely is a two-way street, and I think the question you poses first of all is such a great question.

Mariam: What do we bring when we move to a new country? I think we bring a fresh pair of eyes. I think we might bring a unique way to problem solve. I think we might bring a, a fresh ideas. I think we bring tolerance. I think we bring respect. I think we bring so many things with us. You know, expat life is a beautiful thing.

Mariam: It’s an exchange of culture and ideas and people mix and learn from each other. And like you said, that learning goes both ways. It isn’t just happening one way. I think it’s, it’s definitely a question of. Bringing that fresh perspective with you because we’ve lived in different countries. We’ve, we know there isn’t just one solution to this problem.

Mariam: We’ve seen it being handled in a different way. You know, we know that there isn’t just one way to problem solve. We’ve seen things done in a different way. So I think that kind of innovation. Is also something we bring that kind of like creative out of the box thinking that’s something we bring and these are such valuable aspects to any society because often when you’re just living in a place, you don’t seem.

Mariam: So many things clearly because you’ve never done things differently before, but when you have been exposed to that, that’s when you can say, Oh, but this was done so differently in, in, in Ghana, and you know, it worked out perfectly there. So maybe we could implement the same thing here. And so I think that is what we bring.

Mariam: We bring that fresh perspective. We bring our questioning minds. You know, people who’ve never moved anywhere, they don’t question sometimes half the things that we’re constantly questioning. And yes, it can be a torturous process, but yet it can also perhaps lead to a better process. We go through so many government offices.

Mariam: We go through so many immigration processes, you know, we can tell you which ones we liked and we can tell you which ones work and we can tell you which ones were awful and where they could improve, you know, I mean, getting my license. You know, converted here, I could give you better examples. I could tell you how Singapore did it, you know, and how painless it was.

Mariam: You know, they’re always learning. You have all these different experiences. You can contribute so much to the betterment of society. But I think also bringing. Multicultural people people from different backgrounds and different languages. I haven’t had a chance to talk about what I think that, why I think that is so important, but I will just mention quickly a term called linguistic empathy.

Mariam: I believe that when someone moves to a new country, We contribute to linguistic empathy where we understand and accept and recognize people who speak a different language than us, and we allow an open for that space to include them. And, you know, I, I’m always learning the language of every new place I move to.

Mariam: I’m successful in some, and I fail miserably in, in, in some others, but that’s not the point. The point is that you’re opening yourself up to the new language. And I think that when the existing society also opens itself up to multilingual individuals who are coming in, everybody wins. I really don’t see any downside in that, so I would add linguistic empathy to the list of, the long list that we just mentioned.

Mickelle: Yeah. In my own country, I, I witnessed that firsthand. There is no, none of that really because it’s and I think it’s really one of the reasons that I wanted my children to live abroad is so they would have more than one language. And that I think makes your life so much different to have more than one language that it was important enough to have.

Mickelle: for me to want that for my children. Because of empathy, yes, but also you just, what I’ve heard, and you’re the perfect person to ask this one too, is that you actually think differently or feel differently when you’re speaking different languages. So you almost have more than one you.

Mariam: Yeah, you have more than one you.

Mariam: You’re very different in each language you speak. And I know I am a very very carefree, for instance, in Urdu which is my native language. I’m very informal. I’m a lot more formal, almost boring. Sometimes I feel in German I, you know, stick to the rules. I say things very properly. I feel like a different person when I’m speaking different languages and, you know, whether it’s Italian or whether it’s Danish or whether it’s Arabic.

Mariam: Whether it’s Mandarin, whether it’s Twi or whether it’s Portuguese, I’ve tried and understood so many different languages to different degrees. I speak about four, four languages. I fluently, and then I butcher another four or five just as fluently, shall we say. But it’s you know, it’s so interesting.

Mariam: And now I have about not eight, nine languages in my head. So it has affected my ability to learn Portuguese to that extent. Cause it, my, my brain’s just full. I had no capacity for a new language when I moved here. Of course I can do. I think I’ve done pretty well in terms of doing small talk and doing, you know, day to day errands, but my Portuguese, even after three and a half years, I still would struggle in a government office to do something to do like a bureaucratic process in Portuguese, you know, and part of it was because of the pandemic when we moved here, everything was shut down.

Mariam: And everyone was wearing a mask. So imagine you move to a new country. You can’t understand anybody and everyone’s wearing a mask. So you can’t see their lips move. So some of these things really slow down my practice. And it’s interesting, right? So my. We have different experiences in every place in Denmark.

Mariam: I had no kids and I picked up Danish like this four months, five months, you know, intensive lessons. So it’s different. We’re different in every place. If somebody were to come in now, tell me, Oh, you don’t speak good enough Portuguese for having been here three years. I’ll say, yeah, but you should have met them.

Mariam: 24 year old Maria who became fluent in German, became fluent in Danish, you know, and you know, I, how much capacity does an individual have? We’re different in every place we go to as well. And I think that’s the important thing. You have to be kind to yourself as well. As long as you’re making an effort, I think you’re doing a good job.

Mickelle: Yeah. I tell people that when I, when I moved my first time internationally, I had three children under five. I always say, you know. I think that had something to do with me. I was at full capacity in every way keeping them going. I would have loved the opportunity to, to learn my capabilities of language learning as a young person.

Mickelle: But Yeah, I think we have, like you said, we have to, I, that’s the kindness I’ve found in my own journey is I was kind of doing a lot already. Yeah. And I have three Dutch speaking children, so that’s not nothing. So supporting them and their language journey has been my contribution and I have to have, I’ve had to have, make peace with that so far.

Mickelle: So but I do try, I do try my best, but I, I, I love the way you are framing this. So thank you. Let’s move on. So you, your journey. Took you from Dubai to where you are now or was there another stop? I forgot one more

Mariam: stop from Dubai We moved to Ghana. We moved to Accra, Ghana, which is in West Africa One of the most beautiful corners of the world I have ever been privileged enough to live in And everyone thought we were crazy moving out of Dubai and moving with a six year old and a three year old.

Mariam: To a malaria zone, which is what Ghana is there is a risk of catching malaria. We never caught it. And you know, I mentioned this, MIckelle, because if you would turn to somebody who lives in London and said, and said, Oh, I don’t want to move to London. I might catch a cold if I moved to London. Right. It would sound absurd.

Mariam: And that’s what it sounds like to somebody in Ghana, living in Ghana. If you say, Oh, I don’t want to move to Ghana, I might catch malaria. Just to put it in context. So malaria is just a fact of life there. And as it is in many other parts of the world as well. And so that if you sign up for that, you go into it willingly knowing.

Mariam: What the situation is, knowing what the risks might be and learning to live with those risks. If you’ve never moved to a hardship location, hosting before can be quite challenging. The most challenging thing though, is not that you might not find your favorite brand of shampoo. Most challenging thing is, is here your mindset, because are you going to be the person who is constantly complaining about the slow internet or the fact that the guy never came to fix your washing machine between the time of 10 and.

Mariam: And that’s what he said. Now you’re stuck at home and you know, you’re frustrated or you’re stuck in traffic, awful traffic. And I mean traffic, like four hour traffic, like you’re just stuck in traffic for four hours. Are you going to be the person who complains about that? Or are you going to be the person who says, Well, I might be stuck in traffic for four hours, but look at these beautiful street vendors carrying baskets of avocados and nuts and plantains on their head.

Mariam: And look at their gorgeous, you know, clothes and their kente cloth. And what are they wearing? And maybe I should just get a snack and cool off and, and, and make this. As you know, less painful for myself as possible, you can either move to Africa and complain every single day, every single moment, or you can sit and enjoy, you know, everything that that corner of the world has to offer to you.

Mariam: So it’s definitely not for the faint hearted and Ghana is super safe, super, you know. Amazing, amazing culture. And so we had the best time of our life there and we didn’t miss Dubai at all. We didn’t miss the man made islands or the seven star hotels or the ski slope in the middle of the desert. No, no, no, no.

Mariam: We were very happy to be in gorgeous Ghana where, you know, there was a. Beautiful white raven who would come and croak on our balcony at 4 30 AM. And that was our alarm every day. We were so happy to get our clothes stitched by hand. There was no Zara. There was no H& M. There are no high streets. You go buy fabric and you go get the fabric stitched and you make something, you make your own design.

Mariam: And that for me, what’s one Amazing parts. We do the same in Pakistan. We used to back in the day. So it felt like going back to my roots as well. And you know, people kept asking us, don’t you miss Sephora? And don’t you miss Burger King? And don’t you miss this? And don’t you miss that? No, you don’t. Because guess what?

Mariam: There are these artisanal coffee roasters. You are roasting coffee from Ghana and it tastes 10 times better than Starbucks could ever taste like. So no, you experience all the local culture You swap your life completely and you realize what a gift it is and what a privilege it is to be able to do that.

Mariam: And then when you are forced to leave in the middle of the pandemic, you cry bucket folds because you don’t want to leave because this is, you know, your home, but. You’re in another high risk pregnancy. And unfortunately, the one thing Ghana doesn’t have is good health care or the infrastructure to deal with any complications that may arise in a high risk pregnancy.

Mariam: So that’s really the long story or the short story of why we ended up leaving Ghana. It was a traumatic ending in the sense that the Italian government evacuated us out. They Medi evacuated us out in the middle of the pandemic. Because I was pregnant with our third child and we knew that if something should happen, if things go wrong, I would not have access to the health care that I would require.

Mariam: So either they would have had to airlift me to South Africa, which was the closest you know, place that could have offered me, or it would be to one of our home countries. And we decided to leave Ghana. Also work wise that made it a. It coincided with a work decision where the Ghana office was being, you know downsized and my husband’s new job was going to be in Portugal.

Mariam: So we were actually going to be moving to Portugal and I was planning on giving birth here, but as things happened, it was a very, very traumatic escape out of Ghana and then a very traumatic birth because we moved to Portugal. And only three days later, I went into preterm labor at 26 weeks and four days.

Mariam: So it was a very traumatic start to life in Portugal in the middle of the pandemic. Where I was hospitalized by myself for five weeks trying to keep the baby in and then at 30 weeks I gave birth in a new country in a new health care system in a new language That

Mickelle: is, that is harrowing, to put it, to put it mildly.

Mickelle: Anyone who’s ever done that in the best of circumstances can, I think, feel how, again, harrowing that is. And so, yeah, you’re like, I’m almost crying.

Mariam: I’m so sorry. I did not mean to make you cry. No, no, it’s, it’s beautiful. I want to share that if anyone, It’s

Mickelle: your story.

Mariam: Yeah, should ever look at my, you know, It’s beautiful.

Mariam: Story or thing. Oh, you know, people are, they’re so privileged to live all over. And it, you know, it comes, you have, of course you have your highs, you have your lows, and I guess we’ve experienced them all right. Like you’re, you get placed in situations that. are just so hard, you know, and you just have to pull on all your, your, your experience and use what you’ve learned.

Mariam: And so I am very grateful that, you know, things did go wrong, but I wasn’t in the right place when things went wrong. Things could have been a lot worse, right? So luckily I did get the help that I needed in Portugal. And, of course, we had a very rough beginning, and our first 12 weeks in Portugal were inside a hospital, and my, my son was born too early, at 30 weeks, but he spent then some time in the NICU, and that is a very tough journey, but at this point, I was just grateful that I was in a country that had an NICU, right?

Mariam: So, you have to be appreciative of what you have. And know that things could have been a lot more difficult or you’re at the right place, you know, as things, you know, just trust in that. And so, you know, it it just somehow teaches you that you have to be your own best advocate. And I had had a lot of experience doing that.

Mariam: in my worldly adventures. So I was able to use all of that, put it to good use. And of course, we have a very happy ending with our child our third child doing very well. It’s a rambunctious, you know, mischievous three year old. Now, you would never know what a rough start he had in life.

Mickelle: What strikes me is that your journey and your life story is very much this, this masterful blend of knowing when to advocate for yourself and knowing when to surrender and when to surrender to knowing that you’ve set things up in a way that you’ll be safe.

Mickelle: And then to be able to adventure within that and knowing your values and knowing what you want. That’s a really It’s unique, but also you’ve given yourself like a master class in this and being in all these countries. I think that’s possibly one of the biggest advantages of living a mobile life is you don’t get to be complacent.

Mickelle: There’s no option for being complacent. But you’ve done that in the extreme. And so what you’ve done now. And in your first book, I love how you’ve brought it together. I love everything that’s coming out of what you’re sharing in your own life story and bringing into both the world and to the, the globally mobile community.

Mickelle: Your first book was in 2019, was published in 2019. And it kind of chronicles, your life up to that point. You said romantic like how to bring a romantic relationship together from different cultures. And then from 2019, so that one’s called this, this messy mobile life and it’s out. And then what came after that, the, your new book just came out the guilty can’t say goodbye.

Mickelle: Do I have that right? Perfect. And What was the continuation of the Messy Mobile Life and what compelled you to bring this new one into the world?

Mariam: Yeah, well, this Messy Mobile Life is, it’s part memoir and part guidebook. So it’s it’s a little bit of me sharing my experiences from around the world and also then forming a framework for you to apply to your mobile, mobile life.

Mariam: And I share the concept of a MOLA in it, where I show how each place you live in and each culture you adapt to, and each language you learn ends up forming your life your life by design is what I call it. And that’s what a MOLA is. It’s a shirt that we would put on, which has a very distinct design.

Mariam: And I show you how all the layers of your design are coming together. And I also give some advice and exercises. And practice questions and also conversation starters at the end of each chapter. So it’s to get you thinking about how you’re designing your messy mobile life. Right. And then of course, this, so this was our, my nonfiction first book.

Mariam: And after I wrote this, I realized I wanted to explore the same themes, but just in a fictional setting. And moving to Portugal was sort of the impetus or the catalyst for it. You know, Portugal is, is gorgeous. It’s a gorgeous, gorgeous country. And I would walk the streets here in Cusco and in Lisbon.

Mariam: And I’d look at the houses and I’d look at the apartments and I’d wonder who lives there and what are their stories. And, you know, quite often what happens when we move in expat life, we meet somebody, like if you and I are meeting today, I meet you as you are. I meet you as the MIckelle of today, you know, and I always find myself wondering, but who were you, MIckelle, before I met you?

Mariam: Who were you in your past life? Like, what was your day like? What was your life like? What were your thoughts like? Who were you? Cause I’m also interested in the evolution that we go through and the journeys that we go through. And so in my novel, the guilty can’t say goodbye. That’s what I’ve done. I’ve put three women from three different corners of the world together in Portugal.

Mariam: They moved to Portugal. They meet the first day of. Their kids school when one of them rammed her car into the other in the parking lot. And, and then you have to see Portugal through their eyes. So you see the same country, but through their different eyes. One’s a white Texan, a privileged diplomat, One is a brown woman who has moved around the world and has a gift of learning new languages.

Mariam: And one is a black woman, a very proud, black, artsy entrepreneur who is horrible at languages and doubts herself as a mother at every possible turn of the way. And so you see these three very different women placed in the same country, but you see how different their experiences are because of how different they themselves are.

Mariam: Are, and also you see what they’ve done in the past. And what I really wanted to explore was the theme of guilt, because when we move abroad, we often carry so much guilt with us and it’s, it can be really different types of guilt. It could be guilt for the people we’re leaving behind. It could be guilt for the life we’re creating.

Mariam: It could be guilt for the lives we never got to live as a result of moving. And so people. That I talked to are always feeling guilty for some reason or another. And in my care, in my book the characters carry a lot of guilt and you’re trying to work out what happens. It’s a very human thing to feel guilty, but what happens if we don’t address the guilt and how do we come to terms with the guilt and does the guilt eat us up?

Mariam: And that’s where the title comes from. The guilty can’t say goodbye. My characters aren’t able to say goodbye to who they were because of their guilt. Right. And so it’s a look at ex hat life, moving friendships, starting from scratch in a new place, making a place feel like home and also coming to terms with who you are and your guilt.

Mickelle: Wow. I cannot wait. It’s. I haven’t got a copy yet, but I will be. As people who’ve listened to the podcast a long time know, my first project when I moved to Amsterdam was to start writing a screenplay about four women who moved to Amsterdam from different countries. The theme was female friendship across cultures and Amsterdam as a character, but I, I think that it, what you’ve highlighted and what I was trying to say was this.

Mickelle: Isn’t it a unique experience that brings out different things in different experiences. And when you get to be friends and go through something as unique as a new country together, you get to, you, it’s almost like a new country. You get to experience their culture through them. And so when you make these friendships with people in this moment of your life, when you’re moving to a new country, it’s really magical.

Mickelle: Challenging, but it also changes your life for good. And so I love that you’ve written this book with women in it. Yeah. And exploring guilt, which is something I think uniquely universal by women. Yeah.

Mariam: It’s so interesting to hear that you’d written a a screenplay, quite some around the same themes.

Mariam: And I think that’s really interesting because when we’re living these lives, these are the kinds of experiences we’re having of global friendship, of, you know, making a place. You know, falling in love with a place and waiting for it to fall in love with us, perhaps sometimes. Right. So I think it’s very relatable and hopefully, you know, it’s lovely to hear that people can have had these ideas as well and can relate to that.

Mariam: And because that’s so much of what we go through.

Mickelle: Yeah, but you brought it into the world and I’m so excited to bring people’s awareness to it. And you know, for my myself, I think I’m going to, it’s going to be a uniquely beautiful read. So thank you for bringing it into the world. That is not an easy process to, to bring something, a book into the world and you’ve done it twice.

Mariam: Thank you. Thank you so much. I hope it will resonate with you and with anyone who picks it up. I’m pretty sure that the book will fall into your hands at the perfect time. And I hope that it will be your guilt free pleasure while reading it.

Mickelle: Yes, beautiful. Well, congratulations so much. And I feel like we just had four different conversations.

Mickelle: Just a fount of beautiful new perspectives and bringing together ideas in a way that I think is just really beautiful. So I’m a huge fan of what you’re doing, of you, and thank you for bringing your magic to the world. Thank you so

Mariam: much, because I really, really enjoyed our conversation. Thank you for helping me to keep it real.

Mariam: Thank you for making me feel so comfortable to share. I think I think that’s probably what I value the most. Just the chance to share in an authentic way, our stories from these you know, this, this life that we make for ourself. And I really appreciate what you’re doing. So thank you so much for having me.

Mariam: It was my pleasure. All right.

Mickelle: We will put the links to the books down below. How should people reach you? What’s your, if people want more of your work or to reach out to you, how is the best?

Mariam: Oh, sure. Yeah. I’m very active online. I have a website with my name. It’s mariamnavidottimofiore. com. I can maybe write that or we could put that in.

Mariam: It’s just, yeah, so it’s just my name. That’s my website. You can reach me there. And of course, if you’d like to read my books, you can find them everywhere online and also in bookstores. If you don’t find it in your bookstore, you can like request it or order it at your library or your bookstore. But yeah, Amazon or Barnes and Noble or Apple or, you know, wherever you do download.

Mariam: Or by books, you can definitely find this messy mobile life and guilty. Can’t say goodbye, which has just been released just about three weeks ago. So I really hope you get a chance to read that. And of course, I’m also very active on social media. You can find me on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn Twitter.

Mariam: Not so much. I do believe I still am probably on there, but I don’t never post there. Don’t talk

Mickelle: to me on Twitter. Yeah. What’s your preferred social media? What’s the best one to reach you? I

Mariam: think probably Instagram is my preferred and probably where I’m most

Mickelle: active.

Mariam: But I’m also very active on LinkedIn, more from like a relocation and moving industry point of view.

Mariam: So if it’s anything to do with that, you’re also very welcome to connect with me on

Mickelle: LinkedIn.

Mariam: Okay.

Mickelle: Thanks again for coming on. Love it. Get her book and yeah, I’m sure we’ll have you back another time. Thank you so much, MIckelle. Okay, that’s it for today. I hope you’ve enjoyed our show. For the latest insights on living internationally, join us at HouseofPeregrine.

Mickelle: com to find out how you can connect with our community. Let’s craft our life story with intention together.