Mickelle: Hello everyone. And welcome back to another episode of the House of Peregrine podcast. Today I have on Erin Frobenius, who is a relocation counselor and consultant, provides one to one support, gatherings and resources for internationals who want to connect and thrive in their new or not so new community.
Mickelle: Welcome, Erin. I am so excited to have you on today. Thank you so much, Mickelle. I’m happy to be here. I would love for everyone to just hear, introduce yourself to us and let us know where you’re from, a little bit of your background, and then we’ll get into what you’re up to for the international community.
Erin: Okay. So I’m Erin and I moved here to Amsterdam seven years ago with my husband and my then four year old son. We moved here from Boston, but we had only been living there for about two and a half years. Prior to that, we lived in Seattle, Washington. And then prior to that, I lived in a couple of other locations.
Erin: Um, so I traveled around, moved quite a bit, um, in my life and we moved here and put our son in uh, Dutch school when he was four and time has just flown by. Here we are. Seven years later, we had intended like a lot of people to stay for two years and COVID hit and things just sort of kept going. We knew we wanted to stay and here we are.
Mickelle: Yeah. I’m on the same track. Eight years. Yeah. I came with a five year old, a three year old and a one and a half year old. And so yeah, now it’s eight years later and it happens, it happens. And so you know this story well of finding a place or moving around and then landing. And so tell me, you’re from the States originally, you moved around a lot there.
Mickelle: Why Amsterdam? What made you come to Amsterdam?
Erin: Well, we moved here. Just the practical reason is because my husband got a job here. So I was the traveling partner and followed him here. Um, super, super excited about it. We had always hoped to come to Europe and really wanted to live overseas. We were, we were at the end of sort of our time in Seattle feeling like we wanted to change.
Erin: So going to Boston was like the next big step for us. And, um, and then we just came here and we jumped at the chance. We jumped at it. We just thought it’s a great opportunity. It was a good opportunity for our kiddo to learn another language and for us to just experience another, living in another culture.
Erin: Yeah.
Mickelle: Nice. And was that, is your partner also husband from, from the States as well? Yeah, he’s American. Yeah. Uh, nice. Nice. Yeah. And so where, where do you remember when that impulse came to you? Like when you were like, I want to experience another culture. I want my, my son to know another language. Like what was that?
Mickelle: Was that just always something in you or do you remember the moment?
Erin: Yeah, I mean, my backstory is that I, it’s just part of who I am. So in the US, I was a clinical social worker. And, um, I just have always had an interest in other cultures in people who are different than me. And I think part of that is I grew up in a family I’m the oldest of four kids.
Erin: We’re all adopted. My youngest brother is from Korea and I have a first cousin who is a Korean adoptee as well. People went to the Peace Corps in my family. Like I just was always exposed to culture and I was lucky enough to be in a family that we all piled in. The van and drove around the U S my parents to a, a really nice job of like, just getting us out and exposed to things.
Erin: And so I knew that I always wanted my child to be exposed as well. But the other driver for me is I’ve always had this deep belief that we all should know another language. And it just was such a challenge for me as a kid to get that. And I really was excited for him to come here and be immersed in another language.
Erin: It didn’t matter to me what it was.
Mickelle: Yeah. Me too. I always say learning, learning Dutch is a little bit like learning the oboe or something. Everyone thinks it’s not useful, but it’s incredible, right? It’s actually, you’re learning a language, you’re learning, uh, you’re learning another language by learning an instrument.
Mickelle: Um, and so that, yeah, for me it was the same. And so that’s really interesting to hear you say it didn’t matter what language, cause I have this story all the time with people. And do you think, do you think that So are you learning? Like when you learning Dutch or learning another language as an adult, there’s a little bit of mourning that your kid is like way better than you are.
Mickelle: Oh yeah, totally. And you know, I think the thing is I
Erin: didn’t come into it. I, I, I didn’t come into it thinking it was going to be easy for me. I knew that I have a background as a medical social worker, so I, you know, I have a lot of, I was exposed to a lot of things neuro, neurobiologically, but I knew that him learning any language at that early age would train his brain.
Erin: He would be learning another language, whereas for me, I had two years of Spanish and when I started learning Dutch. The Spanish words would come out. And it’s not because I was fluent in Spanish, it’s because that’s what my brain knew. So it’s like a completely different way of learning as an adult, right?
Erin: Like it’s just, I mean, I had to go, wait, what? What is a preposition? I had to like relearn the, so.
Mickelle: That is so interesting. So neurobiologically, children are learning a language a different way than adults are. We’re replacing things and they’re, yeah, tell me about that.
Erin: Well, they’re just, you know, as a four year old, he’s just immersed in it.
Erin: He just was playing and learning it by play. And his little brain was just sponging it up. And in three months, he was fluent, you know, and for me, I’m so focused on getting it right, the grammar, the, You know, the way I say things, I’m embarrassed by it. And it’s, it’s more complicated and he just learned it, right?
Erin: He just learned it. Whereas we’re just more focused on the book version of it. Yeah.
Mickelle: Well, it’s a little more high stakes being in a big body and having to make adult conversation. But other than that, they’re learning, at least for my kids that weren’t quite. Their language centers weren’t closed. It was like they were learning everything for the first time.
Mickelle: So adding in Dutch, uh, English, Dutch, you know, it’s all just open. Um, so that was a really beautiful thing to watch actually. And I am jealous of my children. Um, so I want to, I want to go back to a little bit like being, um, tell me a little bit about being a medical. You said, Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Erin: Social worker.
Erin: Social worker. Social worker, yeah. Well, so actually, um, I’m a licensed clinical social worker and in the U. S. what that means is that I can be a therapist, I can have a private practice and be basically a thera a therapist. Mm hmm. And, um, in order to be a medical social worker, I worked a long time in oncology with, so, um, with adults who had cancer diagnosis and their families and we did, as the oncology social workers.
Erin: we provided the emotional support and counseling for folks that were going through a cancer diagnosis. And in most places now in the U S in order to be a medical social worker, you have to have the license to be a clinical social worker, because you need to have that mental health background. As you might imagine, there’s a lot of mental health stuff that comes with any kind of diagnosis.
Erin: And also we did a lot of health coaching. So I was an oncology social worker for a very long time. And then when we moved to Boston, I became a health coach. I was a coach in a medical setting and worked with people who had been through transition, drug and alcohol abuse, homelessness, um, lots of mental health stuff and worked with folks to access their primary care and counseled with, did a lot of therapy with them as well.
Mickelle: And that comes, it’s because it touches every part of their life, right? This diagnosis touches every part of their life and let’s say a cancer diagnosis or a, you know, my dad had, um, has, has had heart problems and you get that diagnosis and it changes everything.
Erin: Yes. And if you’re someone who has a heart diagnosis or a cancer diagnosis, you still also have all the other things that you’ve had in your life.
Erin: So you might have a clinical depression or stress or, you know, whatever it is. So there’s just, it’s just becomes part of every other part of your life.
Mickelle: And you still have to pay the bills and you still have to adult and you still have to do all the things.
Erin: Yeah.
Mickelle: Yeah. So it’s important. So it’s to have someone like that by your side is actually really important, if not essential to make it through.
Mickelle: And I don’t think it’s available to everyone. I don’t think that this is, this is a new, would you say it’s a new paradigm ish in the States and around the world? No,
Erin: I, I, it’s very different than it is here. And we can talk about that. But, um, in the U. S. medical social work, I think it transitioned. It, there’s been a transition.
Erin: Um, I think social workers are seen as just sort of navigators and helping people to sort things out, like logistics and resources and getting set up with help at home and that kind of stuff. I think the mental health and the clinical super, the licensed clinical part of it has maybe evolved over time.
Erin: And I know that I definitely worked in a program where the person that I worked for was a champion of making the oncology program work. social workers worked at the top of their game. Like it was, you know, we had to be really skilled and have a lot of education to do it, but we also have the other side of us, right?
Erin: So that’s part of where it comes in for me is I love to build community. I’m a navigator. I love to help people find resources. I love to help people get connected. I reach out, I resource with people. So that’s the other side of it. Um, as a social worker as well, you sort of have that community building and that wanting to help people connect piece as well, because
Mickelle: that helps the overall picture.
Mickelle: Yes. Yes. And, and that’s a hidden, I think, I mean, I think so many things exist in a container that don’t, that just make it worse. Yeah. And so, and so I see how this pulls through to what you’re doing now. So since you moved, so when you were a medical social worker and your work there, you were bringing together the, this.
Mickelle: individual with your training in social and, um, medical, uh, mental health together with the ecosystem of this person and making this new paradigm work. And then you’re taking that skill and translating it to people who have moved abroad, I think that’s what I see.
Erin: Yeah.
Mickelle: Um, and tell me, and moving abroad is not a medical diagnosis.
Mickelle: We all know that. No. But it is an amazing. Or important, uh, thing that affects every part of your life, even physical, yes, we know that your containers come, your house gets backed up, but let’s talk about the inner landscape of how it affects people, family systems.
Erin: Yeah. So, I mean, the parallels are there, right?
Erin: There’s grief and loss, there’s transition, there’s stress, there’s situational depression, there’s anxiety, there’s Like, complete shock. I mean, all of those things come with an international move, and it’s always happening. So you might be here for five years, you might be here for one year. You’re always transitioning when you have relocated.
Erin: That is so important. Can you say that again? You are always You are always transitioning when you’ve relocated because you’re always adapting and adjusting to something new. So an example of that is I feel very connected into the community here, but whenever I experienced something new, for example, my son is getting ready to go to middle bar school.
Erin: So I know a lot of people can appreciate this. I’m like, Oh, this is something completely new, completely unfamiliar to me. I don’t even know where to start. So there’s that part of it culturally, like I have a whole system I have to learn and I’ve been here for seven years. And the other part that’s happening in that is the emotional piece of this independence that’s coming with my son and navigating that in a different way as well.
Erin: And culturally,
Mickelle: yeah, when he was born, if you were Dutch, you would have been preparing for this since then. You would have known. Yes. It’s here. But you, as a parent who is new to this culture and this system, have just, it’s just dawned on you maybe a year ago, this transition. I think it’s such an important thing you’re saying that we, you know, it’s so easy to forget, even for me.
Mickelle: As an international person, you are always, always adjusting. Yeah. It doesn’t matter. And, and you’re, not only are you doing things for your first time in your life, so like you’re, you’re having a baby, you’re getting married, you’re doing all the normal, you know, stuff that people do, but then you’ve got this learning curve and then this emotional curve that maybe you don’t, you’ve never seen anyone deal with, or you’ve never, you don’t have the tools.
Mickelle: Even if you had the tools, who would you get those tools from, because your parents probably didn’t do this. Um, and so that is something that I think is really important. This, I call it extra cognitive overload. Sure. Or overhead. Um, and it’s really, really good to hear you say that, because I think sometimes life gets overwhelming, but then it gets excellent.
Mickelle: It’s just extra. And of course, we all want to do it. We all are here for it. But knowing that exists for everybody is really, really just a comforting thought. We’re all kind of doing it together.
Erin: Yeah. And I think that’s super important to highlight as well, Mickelle, because I think we are doing it together, but also you may not have your team in place to help you do it with, you know, you don’t, you don’t have your team.
Erin: So if you’re talking with your parents who are back in the U. S. or your friends in the U. S., they aren’t going to get it. There’s, there’s no. They don’t get it. So it’s so nice. This is why I find it so important to build community here, because it’s so nice to be around people who are going through a similar experience, just like it was when I facilitated support groups for people who had breast cancer, you go into a room and people just get it.
Erin: You don’t have to explain your whole story. So that’s also part of. Really important here to have your community because then you can be around people who get it, right? You don’t have to explain yourself every time and your family at home and your friends at home want to be supportive to you But they they just aren’t experiencing it.
Erin: Yeah,
Mickelle: they have they don’t they lack the tools as well, right? So resourcing with people who are going through something similar and people I all often I always say, you know Like I know I live in a postcard I live in like one of the most beautiful places in the world. I feel so lucky. But at the same time, there’s other stuff going on, right?
Mickelle: Like there’s two sides of that coin. There’s a, there’s a cost to it, but also the benefits are so vast to what we’re doing that it just, it outweighs it, but that doesn’t mean we can ignore these things. Um,
Erin: yeah, I mean, we are very lucky. Of course, we are very lucky. And many people that we know from other parts of the world say that as well.
Erin: But also we are living life. So we do have to pay the bills and we do have to, you know, work and send our kids to school and blah, blah. I mean, we are living a life in a beautiful place. Seattle’s a beautiful place too, you know, like, but it is,
Mickelle: yeah,
Erin: we’re not on, we’re not on a holiday here, you know,
Mickelle: we’re
Erin: not
Mickelle: on holiday.
Mickelle: That’s a big difference. And I think that, especially when I first arrived and I want to get into your process and everything, but now this is turning into a therapy session, Aaron. I don’t know. This is just what you do. Um, when I first arrived, I felt a lot of guilt for feeling, you Um, feeling these feelings or these things.
Mickelle: I thought it was like a personal feeling or like it would pass. I would get the hang of things. It’s like you have these, these things in your mind. Like once I learned the language, once I have a, the house settled, once my kids are settled in school. And I just kept thinking, I’m not getting it. I’m not getting it.
Mickelle: I don’t feel how I think I’m supposed to feel on a perpetual vacation in Amsterdam. Like that, you know, that. So this was a process for me and maybe for others to give myself credit for the things I was doing and the process that’s happening and that will continue to unfold. Um, and so that that’s such an important point.
Mickelle: And that’s what I, one of the reasons I started House of Peregrine, right, is I wanted to be around other people who knew what it was like to not have an emergency contact. Totally, totally.
Erin: It’s so great. I mean, the thing is, is that I don’t know if that everybody does this, but a lot of people come and it’s like, you’re maybe some, I was certainly a little bit naive and I was so excited about the experience.
Erin: And it was like, when the honeymoon ended, I was like, Oh boy. What the heck just happened to me? You know, like two years later I’m like, wait a minute, wait a minute, you know, and then it’s like the reality is there and you are feeling guilty because this is a place where a lot of people come on holiday and they see you as having this, this incredible life, which we do, but also the honeymoon is over and you got to get your life back.
Erin: If you got it and, and figuring out how to work the dryer and how to work the oven. Those are all things that are real challenges when you’re having to learn everything.
Mickelle: Yeah. When you’re having to learn everything. I love that. Yeah. I always tell the story. I think I’ve told on this podcast a number of times when my son, the first few weeks we were here, he was five and he said, uh, I kept saying something and finally we’re riding down the street in the buckbeats and he turns to me and he asked me a question.
Mickelle: I said, I don’t know, buddy. And he goes. Yeah. Mommy, what do you know? It’s like, not much. Not much.
Mickelle: And I really think that that, that, this experience has shaped my parenting journey in a very unique way in my relationship with my kids.
Erin: Oh, for sure.
Mickelle: Yeah, so I want to go through what you’re up to now. What are you, what are you like creating in the international universe that we are all in? Well, so I’ll,
Erin: I’ll kind of tell you just quickly the backstory.
Erin: So, um, at about two years after we had been here, I started, full disclosure, I was not working. We just decided I would come and I would get us settled after we’d moved to Boston. And it, it, It was, that was a good prep for coming here. Um, full disclosure, like I like
Mickelle: how you say that, like it’s a secret, like full disclosure.
Mickelle: I was just doing
Erin: the
Mickelle: bulk of my family’s work.
Erin: I was doing all the work. I was doing all the setup. Yeah. And I had never not had an outside job. Like I’ve had a job, I left a career that I absolutely loved. So it was a very hard career. Decision to leave. It was a big sacrifice. Yeah, I was happy to do it, but it was a sacrifice.
Erin: So about the time that we were, we’d been here two years, I started thinking, okay, I have to figure out what I’m going to do, or we’re going to have to go back because I can’t not, this is not my life. Like I, I need to work. And then around that time, COVID hit. And we also were thinking we really loved it here.
Erin: We didn’t want to leave. And in the meantime, I was getting connected to people, friends, acquaintances, people I didn’t know were saying, Hey, I have a friend who’s thinking about coming. I have a friend who’s coming. Would you be willing to talk to them before they get there to talk about schools or where they should live?
Erin: Or, you know, just what’s it really like to live there?
Mickelle: Yep.
Erin: And so I just started doing that. And I was, you know, I, I live in this great neighborhood where there’s lots of people that are coming and going. So everyone would come and knock on my door. I would just, I would get lots of questions. So I just thought I’m going to create something because I was getting repeat questions.
Erin: What do I do for swimming lessons? Like, I don’t want to tell that story seven times. So, so I created an Instagram called today was asked and that’s the social worker in me, like just wanting to share my information. I also have a huge interest in supporting local companies, small businesses. I just want to see everybody do well.
Erin: That’s working hard. So I started that, but as you might imagine out of that, I was also listening. I’m always listening with my mental health, my emotional ears, and I was providing emotional support to almost everyone that I talked to. So I thought, okay, there’s something going on here. And in the U S I had been considering opening a private practice to do some counseling and, um, supervision for social workers who were getting their social work license.
Erin: So I thought, I have these skills, how can I do something here? And I didn’t know what I wanted to do, so I, I hired a business coach who really helped me to just start trying everything, testing everything, blah, blah, blah, you know, figuring it all just at going. It’s been kind of a slow drive, but anyway, so here I am, I’ve transitioned and I’m owning the counseling piece.
Erin: I’m calling myself, I am a relocation counselor and I also am doing consulting for some companies and, um, I just I feel like my role is to provide solution. I use the solution focused brief therapy sort of, um, uh, therapeutic approach, which is similar to coaching in, but I have this background in mental health.
Erin: So I can really work with people emotionally, think about really what’s going on with them and also help them to kind of keep moving forward. If I feel like people need more psychotherapeutic help, really big significant depressions or anxiety or trauma, I have a list of referrals that I can make to people.
Erin: I, that’s just, I don’t feel comfortable doing that without having a system supporting me. So I support internationals, expats who have relocated, who are lonely, isolated, disconnected. Feeling a little unsure entrepreneurs or people who are considering a job change, people who are transitioning, like you name it.
Erin: It occurs to
Mickelle: me. Oh, sorry to interrupt you. Um, I wanted to say it occurs to me that oftentimes. Your journey as a traveling partner. Is that what you said? Yeah. Everyone calls it something different. Yeah We don’t say trailing spouse anymore, but no traveling partner or supportive partner Yeah your experience there is actually shaping your what you’re offering is because often The person who’s doing all the logistics and everything for their family is also left with a little bit less support a little bit less community Because the person who came here for a job has a community right away Has a job.
Mickelle: And so this dovetails really nicely with your lived experience as well. Yes. Um, and that’s really important because that’s missing in a lot of these relocation, um, well, just logistics, even if you’re doing it on your own. Yeah. Let alone with a company. So I think that’s really beautiful. Anyway, I interrupted what you were saying.
Mickelle: I apologize.
Erin: No, I agree with what you’re saying. And I think where I’m, I’m, I’m different in the sense that I’m not the relocation company that’s going to help you find a house and find a school. I’m really there to provide the emotional support and You’re there to help them find themselves. I, I am and their community and their community, you know, and, um, and I, I also have a really strong interest in movement and I know that just getting out and exercising and going for a walk can really boost your mood and impact your mental health.
Erin: And it also helps you. Yeah.
Mickelle: That’s really hard when you first arrived because you
Erin: don’t know your places yet. Yep, and it also, but it also helps you to learn your community. So that in itself can be such a mood booster. And you know, this is the thing. I find that the people that I support aren’t necessarily the people who are here.
Erin: I might have a little bit of contact with people before they come. But sometimes it’s a year after they’ve been here because they’re settling, they’ve, they’ve gone through all the tasks and they don’t have time really to deal with sort of the emotional impact of it. It takes some time to realize it. So that’s why I say Is there a word for that?
Mickelle: Is there a word for that? What you do when you put yourself, um, like you kind of dissociate from your own, just to get a job done, just to survive. And then Yeah. It is like survival. It is like survival. Is that what it is? Is it a survival mode where we’re like doing, I mean, it looks great because you’re like doing the, the swimming lessons, you get the kids signed up for the, you get your gym membership, all that feels great.
Mickelle: Um, but it’s not really dealing with yourself.
Erin: No. And what I would also say, I don’t know if there’s a specific word, but I would say it’s survival, right? The other thing I would say is what I also hear a lot is. pair as parents, we are so worried about making sure that our kids are okay and settled and that everything is set for them, that we aren’t taking notice of ourself and how just our own behavior, our own, uh, emotional, maybe lack of emotional awareness might be impacting what’s happening with our kiddo.
Erin: So that’s the other thing is I, I really encourage parents to just take a step back and think about, okay, how do I deal with emotions, stress, anxiety, my kid’s going to a new school, you know, like, I think that there is this thing about parents. We just want our kids to do well. And then we haven’t done anything really to think about ourself.
Erin: And then. A year later is when you go, okay, I’m kind of a wreck.
Mickelle: Yeah. Or whatever it is, you know, I’m lonely. I, as I say, kids are on your wifi, right? Like they’re on your wifi. So if you’re not well, and that, that survival energy gets you, gets you to where you need to go. How are, what are some ways that we can identify this survival energy maybe?
Mickelle: And it is necessary. We should say like in those first few weeks. It’s important, right? We don’t want to say it’s not important, but we don’t want to be in it for years. No. And it becomes, it easily becomes a way of life if you’re, if you’re doing international moves. And so what are some ways we can recognize this and maybe get out of it if someone doesn’t, can’t call you yet, but they, they can start recognizing in themselves the survival energy or survival state that they maybe can take a step out of?
Erin: Well, I’ll give you a really good example. So, for me, I had this list of things that I needed to do, right? One of them was figure out how to, uh, classic, how to do, use the wash, the dish, um, the, the dryer, the dryer. I could not figure out how to use the dryer. It was an old dryer. It was damaging my sheets.
Erin: And I was like, I think something’s wrong with this. And everyone kept pushing back on me, the landlord, the relocation person. They kept saying, do this, do this. And I was like, there’s something wrong with it, I think. But I doubted myself. Here it was, you know, this woman who has done laundry for 30 years.
Erin: And finally they sent someone over and the guy repairman came and he unplugged the dryer and he said, don’t use this. This is a huge fire hazard. Don’t plug it in. And at that moment I was like, you know, I’m, I’m so everything is so new to me that I’m doubting myself and everything. So to go to your, to answer your question, I think we all have to just allow ourselves space every single day to just get outside, go for a walk, do a meditation, just because all of these little things that you’re used to doing, just keep adding up and that survival mode, right?
Erin: You’re just going from one thing to the next. All these little things that you’re, that you are used to being part of your life, they’re just routine are new and they’re challenges. And those things just keep piling up. So when that happened, I thought, okay, I, I have to figure out how I can every day get out.
Erin: And just take care of myself. We call it self care. Take care of myself so that I’m in a better space to manage these things. And also looking at my list, I don’t have energy today to do 10 things. I have energy today to do two things. Like, figure out. Yeah.
Mickelle: But back when you were in your, in a country, you knew the language, perhaps, or where you’re from, you could do 10.
Mickelle: Your new reality is two takes. Two takes the same as 10. This is not a personal failing. You are doing a lot. And so that, that shift, that shift is really important. Yes. And I find, and I am allergic to the word self care. I have to say, because when I had little kids, everyone would just say, you just need self care.
Mickelle: I’m like, no, I need community. I need a village. That’s what I need. I don’t need self care. That also is
Erin: taking, that is taking care of yourself. That is taking care of yourself. You’re meeting your needs. that way. So whatever you want to call it, I, I hear you around self
Mickelle: care, but no, I use it all the time.
Mickelle: But what I think you’re saying is, you’re saying self care is also community. Self care is also caring for your family. Self care is also contributing to the betterment of the international community. So your, yeah. Caring for yourself is not optional.
Erin: It is not optional, because if you are not your best self, you are not going to be able to then help, help your family, be in your family, participate, feel happy, you know, whatever it is, manage your day to day life, go to work, you know, all of those things.
Mickelle: Yeah. And, and, And as true as it is when you’re in, you know, your home country or where you’re from or where you speak the language, whatever you want to call it, it’s doubly important here because this is not going to end. This is your new reality. Um, things will get easier. You’ll learn the language, but then there’s new things.
Erin: Yeah.
Mickelle: And so I think making this a practice and budgeting your time differently is a super important, um, Paradigm shift. I think that if, if people got to that earlier, these big crashes might be less, less common. And we’ve all had them, right? Big and small. Even if it’s a day or a week where you’re like, why is this so hard?
Mickelle: Yeah. Yeah. My partner and I still have them today. We had, why is it so hard? And it’s like, Oh, right. We’re doing a lot. Um, we are doing a lot. Yeah. And so I think that paradigm shift early on of this, this is not a luxury. This it like this is your life. Um, this is harder and also a lot of other great things But taking really taking credit for for the things you’re doing in a way I think is really important and making sure that the paradigm shifts and you’re still not Thinking you need to tackle those 10 things on the list or that you can even yeah, that is a really good You also are bringing up some really good points about How community functions?
Mickelle: So I’d like to you to talk about your team. I really loved you use that word your team Or your people because you don’t longer have family or your friends. You’re rebuilding your entire social structure So why don’t you tell me a little bit about that? I I love how you’re bringing the social work aspect and the mental health and the international together so we can look at it all at the same time.
Mickelle: So what does that look like for people? What’s the strategy? Well,
Erin: so the first thing I would like to say is there are, everybody has a different way of, uh, everyone has a different comfort level of putting themselves out there. So I am the kind of person, I mean, I have a background in communication and community building.
Erin: So for me, I love to network. I love to meet new people. My, I prefer to go to situations by myself so I can connect with other people that are there and meet new people. That’s just, that’s just who I am. So for me, I. What I tell people is figure out, be clear about what your, how you feel about connecting in a community.
Erin: Do you prefer to have a one to one setting? Do you prefer to have an art class? Do you like to exercise? Do you like to, whatever it is for parents who come, they are They have more of a social network already built in than people who come that don’t have children or who have children that are in high school, right?
Erin: It’s, there’s, there’s just different levels. Drop off
Mickelle: is
Erin: a way to feel surrounded by people. Yes. So for people who have kids. Use that time. I always, this is what I tell everybody, when you go out somewhere, put down your phone, be available, look around, be available to talk to people. I think that sometimes it’s really hard for folks that are, um, have moved here and aren’t sure, because we hear this a lot, how long they’re going to be staying here.
Erin: They often don’t want to connect, or maybe haven’t even consciously thought that, but don’t connect because they’re unsure if they’re going to be staying. They don’t feel, it’s hard to connect when you’re not sure, I might be leaving. And I think even for me that was the case. The, the way I felt in the beginning, and I know a couple of people that have, and as we experience in this life, lots of people move away, but I just decided that I’m going to connect with people as if I’m going to be here forever, because otherwise I’ll never feel connected.
Erin: I’ll never feel settled and I’ll always feel this uncertainty. And that to me doesn’t feel good. So I just think you
Mickelle: have to shift, right? Like that’s a mindset shift. Yes. Right. It’s a, it’s an impermanence. It’s a recognition of impermanence and letting that be okay.
Erin: Yes. And it, and it also is opening up yourself to heartbreak a little bit because you might become very good friends with people who then move to another part of the world.
Erin: And I think we all want to protect ourselves a little bit. And I even experienced that when we first moved here, people, I got this question a lot. How long are you going to be here? I felt like that was one of the first questions and I was like, what? Why are they asking that? And it was like they were also assessing, do I want to connect with her if she’s not going to be here?
Erin: But I just, I just feel like you want your home to feel nice. This is, I, I say to people, buy the plant. People are like, I’m not going to buy a plant, buy the plant. You don’t know. Anything can change. Just get it, you know,
Mickelle: help yourself.
Erin: You could
Mickelle: be here eight years and you came for a year. Yes. You could be here for, exactly.
Mickelle: Exactly. And also the plant can go to a new home. Yes. To somebody else that’s
Erin: coming here.
Mickelle: Yes. But buying a plant is a really good example of this idea of stalling, stalling your friendships, stalling your growth, stalling your, and a lot of people feel it with travel, right? Like I think the first year we traveled to like five different countries or something and we’re like, yeah, this is our life now.
Mickelle: It’s full. And then you kind of come back and you’re like, but we don’t know anybody.
Erin: Yeah.
Mickelle: Yeah. And so tell me a little bit, I love that you say you’re opening yourself up to heartbreak
because you
Mickelle: are. And that is just, again, one of those paradigm shifts, like it’s now part of the territory for you. You don’t get the incredible meeting, incredible people meeting aligned people in rapid succession sometimes without, without.
Mickelle: This reality of this community does do a lot of moving around.
Erin: Yeah.
Mickelle: Um, and you are one of, one of those people now. So you also, I always say everyone’s a flight risk, right?
Erin: Totally.
Mickelle: Totally. So a friend will say, we need to have coffee. And I’m like, Oh God, are they leaving? Like, that’s my first thought. I haven’t heard from them for a while and then they want to meet.
Mickelle: I have like this radar that’s like, Oh, they, they seem, they were asking about like, you know, there’s these certain markers that you’re like, Oh, they’re leaving. So I feel like I now have like a professional radar for when people are thinking about leaving. Because that’s also a process, right? Starting up life in a new place is a process, but also shutting down and moving on to the next place is a, is a big, big deal.
Mickelle: It’s a big process and it happens very similarly for a lot of people on the emotional
Erin: side. I mean, there’s the grief and the loss and the transition right there. You’re grieving people that are leaving, they’re leaving, they’re grieving, everyone’s transitioning. You know, I think, I think the thing is, is that if you look back on the friends that you’ve had for your whole life, you’ve had those friends your whole life and it takes a long time to make really good friends and deep friendships.
Erin: And I just, you have to nurture your friendships that you make here. I mean, you find. people, but then you have to nurture that, you know, you have to put yourself out there a little bit and invite them for coffee, go for a run, join a group. You know, when I first moved here, I dropped a note in every mail mailbox in my little block and said, come have, we’re having drinks.
Erin: And every single person came and those people are the reason that we stay here. And not everybody is used, wants to do that, but I just Find your way. Find your way. You have to find your way. And I could tell you a million things that I did that worked and a few things that didn’t work. And you just, you know, you have to try.
Erin: Um, and you have to figure out what’s right for you. And I think sometimes people don’t know. So I’m, you know, I can help people sort through that. What’s the best what’s worked? One of the things I do is what has worked? What hasn’t worked? What do you want?
Mickelle: You
Erin: know?
Mickelle: Yeah. And that’s amazing. And we’re doing that.
Mickelle: You’re an extrovert. And obviously, but there’s a way for everyone to find their way. Um, but I think just pointing out that this is something that everyone goes through and everyone’s going to have to figure out. It’s just as, it’s just the same as finding a place to live and putting your kids in school, finding your people is like, should be on your list of people.
Mickelle: You know, finding your people and I think the more countries you do, I’ve, I’ve talked to people who have, you know, 10 countries they’ve moved to or, um, you know, the first time is always harder, but they have a process, they have a process, they know their limits, they know. And I, when you meet these people, you can see they’re like, you’re going to be my best friend for the next year that I’m here.
Mickelle: Are you okay with that? Because I’m leaving. I know I’m leaving. And then there’s people like you and I, maybe that. Have an undetermined end date for when we’re here. Um, and I think those of us who are doing that have a less defined, well defined process. I think so too.
Erin: Yes. And the other thing I want to say is I agree with what you’re saying there.
Erin: And also there are people that didn’t want to make this move. And so that’s another category of people who, um, who have an even more difficult time of finding their people and getting connected. Um, and they’re not on the canals, like feeling so lucky. No. And, or people that have left their careers and really, it’s really a struggle to figure out, you know, all of that.
Erin: I mean, I just, I think there’s so many things that, um, that make it, that make it so challenging for people in all these different situations. And it really is individual how everyone sorts it out and figures out how they’re going to make the best of it, you know, but there are commonalities. There are commonalities.
Mickelle: Yeah.
Erin: Yeah. And
Mickelle: that brings up why having an individual coach like you, um, to help them figure out their process, what works for them. And it sounds like even professionally, um, there’s, there’s things. So there’s the professional network that you kind of have to rebuild in a way in
Mickelle: certain circumstances, especially if you’re coming with a partner.
Mickelle: Um, and then, so there’s social, there’s your kids, there’s professional. And so really it’s, you’re in a way you’re developing a new part of yourself.
Erin: You’re totally recreating yourself. It’s an opportunity. It’s an opportunity, if you see it that way, to be who you want, to recreate yourself. I think, um, my hat was, I mean, it was like I, I was sort of forced into What?
Erin: Thanks. Doing this business because I couldn’t do what I normally do in the way that I was doing it in the U S and in the U S I’d been always thinking, Oh, I’m going to open a private practice, but I didn’t because I was comfortable and I had a great job and blah, blah, blah. So it was an opportunity for me to, to do something that I’ve wanted to do.
Erin: So there’s definitely opportunity, definitely opportunity, but
Mickelle: you had to change it, right? Cause your licensure, is it a licensure problem? No,
Erin: I, I call. I have my license. I’ve maintained my license in the US and I can work here in the Netherlands as a licensed clinical social worker and call myself a counselor.
Erin: I call myself a counselor because if I say licensed clinical social worker, nobody really knows what that means. And I’ve just been like, this is what I do. I’m a counselor. Consultant and a coach. So I just to make it easy for people to understand. I mean, even in the U. S. I’d have to say I’m a social worker and they’d go, Oh, you’re here to take my baby away.
Erin: No, I mean, I’m used to that as a social worker, like having to always define myself. So here I’m like, well, I’m just going to say what I’m doing. Because this is what I’m doing. But I do have the professional background. Yeah.
Mickelle: Yeah. That’s really cool. It’s cool that your license is recognized because I know some other licenses, like I think lawyers and nurses or medical professionals, they aren’t always transferable.
Mickelle: So they end up doing something completely different. Yes. Yes. That’s cool. And so that just speaks to this. Being really creative with what you’re doing, like whatever you were doing before, you’re going to have to find a new take on that maybe, or find a new audience, or find, or maybe you didn’t like what you’re doing, and this is a chance to take those skills, which is kind of my story.
Mickelle: I did not like it, I just couldn’t be a mom of three and do what I was doing. You can’t really be gone forever. Half the month when you have three kids, at least I didn’t want to be and so I had to Really take all the tools I had learned and re put them into something else and that is quite a process and I had I did have help from coach and Really getting to the essence of what and why you do things and that is a really transformative process.
Mickelle: I would say And it leads to some really incredible businesses actually, um, in the international community. Yeah. Yes.
Erin: I think that’s the thing. I, I, Amsterdam really does support people who want to be entrepreneurs. I, I’m surprised at how easy that like that felt to just like get a business started. It’s of course very difficult, um, to get a business off the ground.
Erin: It’s yeah. Yep. It’s not for the faint of heart, that’s for sure. Um, but also I like that I can do what I want to do. You know, I, I, and, and one of the things that I being an entrepreneur, I really feel connected into the entrepreneur community and recognize all the emotional support that is needed in that community.
Erin: Um, and So that is not something that I ever would have considered. You know, it’s just opened a door for me there and I’m launching this net walking group, which is for creative and health and wellness entrepreneurs. I’ve partnered with a woman out of the UK. She’s a female founder. And I just, I think I never would have imagined this being, but it fits with me because all my services are walk and talks.
Erin: I want everyone to get out. I want everyone to move, but it’s just like these, all these doors opened up and it’s been years in the making. Let’s just be clear.
Mickelle: Yeah, you had to catch up with your mission. Totally. Yeah. Your mission found you. And that, that, that is so, so tell me what you are doing. So tell me, okay.
Mickelle: And I, if, if I’ve just moved here, I love that you say new or not so new. So like, even if you find yourself having this, this desire to re imagine or find, find your people, find who you are in this space, when someone comes to you, How do you work with them? What does, what does it look like to work with Aaron?
Erin: So it just sort of depends on what they’re looking for, but let’s just say somebody comes and says, I’ve been here for two years, I cannot make friends. I can’t connect with Dutch people. I’m feeling really lonely. I don’t, I’m, I w I want my friends to know my kid’s birthdays. I want to have Saturday night dinners.
Erin: I want people to come over and watch movies, go out for dinner. So, uh, That’s the first thing I’ll do is ask people like what is it that you want what and sometimes people don’t know they might just be sad. They might just be lonely, but I really will do an assessment to sort of ask what’s going on and allow some space to talk about what has worked.
Erin: What hasn’t worked, what do you want to try? How do you like to integrate yourself? How do you like to meet people? Do you have a sport that you like to do? You know, I I’ll go through sort of all of those things, but all along that way, I’ll provide emotional support to people, but we’ll also be making a plan.
Erin: We need to have a goal at the end of this. What is the goal? I, you know, I really want people to be able to work towards something, feel a little challenged. I have tons of resources. I have tons of connections. I can help people get connected. Um, and like a life therapist, maybe, maybe. I mean, I’ve done, I, I, anyway.
Erin: Um, yeah, so I just, I really, I really meet people where they are. And if it’s, if it’s just ongoing sort of situational depression. I’ll work with people around that and see if, if we can work together, let’s go out and do some exercise. Let’s see if that helps you a little bit. We, if I need to, I’ll work with a primary care or general practitioner.
Erin: If it’s more serious than that, I also have the skills to assess what’s going on. More serious depression, and I will then help that person to get connected to somebody else. I’ve also supported people who are in a career change and really want to get connected professionally into the community here. So, um, I have a client who really wants to get connected into the community and build a business here, has an established business somewhere else.
Erin: So I help him to get connected into my connections. We do every week we talk, we figure out what he wants. To do who he wants to connect with and I help him get connected. I do direct handoffs to people
Mickelle: And so that in that way You are like a confidant
Erin: Yeah, I mean I’m there to be supportive alongside and my ultimate goal is I want to see people do well I want to see them be happy be and thrive I know that it’s not easy and I am there to support
Mickelle: you through that Yeah.
Mickelle: This is a very specialized thing, right? It’s a very niche thing, but so, so important because as we always say, like these are the years of your life. You’re here in this place creating something and these are, this is a story, this is a chapter in your life story. And so I think that you are, I don’t know, I have so many words for it, like a doula, a confidant, like the person that can kind of be a little bit of a guide and support in that.
Mickelle: portion of their life, what they, what changes they want to see. Right. So, and
Mickelle: that, um, that is really beautiful. And I think that’s really fun. And, and so it’s a determined amount of time they come to you and they have a goal and then you help them kind of get as far as they can in that goal and then help them find other people to get them.
Mickelle: To the next level. Yes. Yes. Um, so, so
Erin: there may be not feeling as lonely, less isolated, less disconnected, maybe feeling a little physically healthier. Yeah. And sometimes it’s just
Mickelle: nice to hear this is normal.
Erin: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, I think that’s what I offer is that I have the background from a coaching mental health background, but I also have been through it.
Erin: So I get it. And I know how challenging it is. And if I can help somebody. Get connected a little faster than what I did that, you know, I’ve been through it so I, you don’t have to go through it all on your own. I can help you and get you guided. Yeah. Directed. Yeah. So buy the plant.
Mickelle: Get outside. Yes. Go out every day.
Mickelle: Go outside. Touch grass. Buy the plant. Yeah. Yes. Reach out even though if you don’t know how long you’re going to be here.
Erin: Yes, find your favorite, find your favorite coffee shop, coffee cafe, or shop. Go for a walk, explore a new neighborhood and then you feel connected and get out on your, I don’t know if you bike or not, but the biking culture is something else we could talk about forever.
Erin: I absolutely love the biking culture. It’s why we’re here. But I will tell you that if I am out on my bike, I almost. Daily, we’ll run into someone that I see and that helps me to feel connected into the community or I know how to get somewhere without looking at my Google Maps. That helps you to feel connected.
Erin: So don’t just stay in your apartment, go out, explore. Those are things if you’re an introvert, those are things that help you to feel connected
Mickelle: and put your phone down, put your phone down. These are all really good starting points. And then if, if you need help or guidance. Or, you know, on this next part of, and you get stuck, you can reach out.
Mickelle: There’s resources and, and resources in the most beautiful way, uh, because this is a valid thing, a valid stage of being an international person, even though no one really talks about it that much, except for us. So, um, Yeah, that’s great. How can people reach you, Erin? And what do you have coming up that we should know about or what’s on?
Erin: So, um, my website is relocationcounseling. com and you can go there and see what I offer. Um, I have some packages up there. You can book a free 20 minute phone call straight from the website. Um, but I do a lot of bespoke things as well. I, you know, I have some suggestions up there of how I can help people, but just always reach out to
Mickelle: me.
Mickelle: Yeah. If people feel connected to you right now, they can just reach out.
Erin: Yes. Yes.
Mickelle: Perfect.
Erin: Um, I am on Instagram at, um, my handle is at today I was asked. I’m keeping that because that’s how people know me and I go on there with sort of what’s coming up. Um, separately, I am a co partner on a rental space, which is a whole nother part of this.
Erin: And I offer some things there. We do coworking pop ups, which is great for internationals who want to come and meet each other. And you can find that information at space for change. And as I mentioned, I have the networking group that’s starting on the 24th for creatives and health and wellness entrepreneurs.
Erin: And we’re going to meet on the fourth Thursday of every month, I’ve mapped out a walk and we’ll have coffee. And it’s really about connecting and supporting each other in that entrepreneurial. Um, yeah, and then I, every quarter or so I organize, uh, an event. I’ve done a few at a rowing center and, um, anyway, so just, I, I love to organize and get people connected.
Erin: So stay tuned.
Mickelle: Via Instagram, moving and connected. Yes. Yeah. Um, that’s really important. And so people can find out about that on, on your Insta. Is that the best place to stay up today?
Erin: Yeah. Instagram and they can always log on to my website as
Mickelle: well.
Erin: Yeah.
Mickelle: Perfect. We’ll put it in the show notes. I love.
Mickelle: Thank you. I love, love, love everything you’re up to. I think it’s so beautiful and I’m really, really glad that you could come on today and tell us about it. Um, Erin, thank you so much for coming on. Thank you for having me. It’s been really fun. Great.