HOPWhenNatureCalls
[00:01:04] Mickelle: Hello everyone and welcome today to the House of Peregrine podcast. I’m joined today with Patrick De Jong and Haylin Neal from When Nature Calls Center for Self Optimization.
[00:01:16] Mickelle: I’m so happy to be here with you guys today. This is such a beautiful space and right in the center of Amsterdam. I love what you guys are up to and I want to hear and get to that. But first I want you to introduce the space to me and what it’s all about. I
[00:01:30] Patrick: mean, let’s
[00:01:30] Mickelle: start with you.
[00:01:31] Patrick: Perfect. Thank you.
[00:01:31] Patrick: Welcome here as well. It’s a pleasure. I’m Patrick the founder of When Nature Calls. I started this business in 1998 with just an idea with friends. We were drunk and normally you don’t have you have a wild idea, but it never comes to reality. And then but I felt from the moment of any beginning this is what we have to do.
[00:01:53] Patrick: This is a new era. Because in Amsterdam, you also work with license. I was afraid that if we lose this train, the license gets stopped when we’re not on board. So immediately the next day we start looking for a space. And then I believe three days later, we had the key and started this business.
[00:02:09] Mickelle: Wow. That’s what you call alignment.
[00:02:10] Patrick: Yeah. And that was 1998.
[00:02:14] Mickelle: That so 1998 places in that time in Amsterdam, if you would, because. And now we know that more and more psychedelics and adaptogens in general are much more mainstream than they were. But in 1998, was Amsterdam the only place you could legally?
[00:02:31] Patrick: As far as I know, yes, except maybe for South American countries which was more like a shamanistic or, or maybe in the culture thing.
[00:02:39] Patrick: I don’t know yet, but I don’t know if it was completely legal by law, but as far as I know, it was, it was a gap at that time for the Netherlands to start a business with psychedelics. Yeah. It was not listed, but you have to remember that in them days, the nineties was the big renaissance of house music, which is coming also, of course, started in Chicago.
[00:02:58] Patrick: Came over to Amsterdam. A lot of people were taking like ecstasy kind of products. And we were starting this business to have an alternative against the illegal chemical substance. So that was the base foundation of starting the business, a smart shop. There was a guy who started the business earlier and he found out that he started the smart shop to get you even smarter with all kinds of natural.
[00:03:23] Patrick: Substance, plant medicine. And then somebody was handing over the cycle these mushrooms, magic mushrooms, and then he said, I believe it’s not falling under any kind of law. So maybe you can sell it. So they start selling it and lawyers were looking into it and it was fine by then. And that’s how it all started.
[00:03:41] Patrick: So we basically, we were starting with the magic mushrooms. Which was a complete new thing. And on the other side, we had, of course, all the alternative for the illegal kind of drug substance. And then through the years, it did change a little bit because some substance when the government took them out, they would get listed And then also the use of psychedelics changed, especially starting from the pandemic.
[00:04:02] Patrick: We noticed a lot of changes was going on more into the microdosing instead of like the recreational kind of dose. We were already starting before the pandemic with microdosing as well. And we noticed also there is a new kind of error. And you see it sometimes every seven years that comes a new kind of thing, it looks like.
[00:04:20] Patrick: So immediately I jumped on into it and try to figure out how we can put it better in the market. Then eventually we then up here to open the new facility, the Biohacking Center for Self Optimization, where we have more to focus for mental well being. So that’s where
[00:04:37] Mickelle: we are today.
[00:04:38] Patrick: And that’s where we are today.
[00:04:39] Patrick: Yeah. Correct. Yeah.
[00:04:41] Mickelle: And I want to ask you this and then we’ll get to your introduction. Is what was that first experience? Like what was, what was your background before that? Like you were obviously.
[00:04:52] Patrick: I was more for coming from a business school. So it was more of a study with economics. As from a child, I was already selling all kinds of stuff.
[00:05:01] Patrick: I was more like a business guy than really interested in like psychedelics. But during the way I found my way in psychedelics as well. Of course, in the beginning I had to experience it myself because the product, what you’re selling, yeah, you have to know about it. But in the beginning, really in the beginning, I was just selling.
[00:05:19] Patrick: And then through the years we found out more the secrets and more The potential benefits of the psychedelics world the product itself.
[00:05:28] Mickelle: And so would you say that the business grew from your just pure business?
[00:05:32] Patrick: Yeah. The beginning was really a business opportunity.
[00:05:35] Mickelle: Ah, so you just saw, you’re like, oh,
[00:05:37] Patrick: yeah, yeah.
[00:05:37] Patrick: I saw the gap. And like I said, and I, I noticed that we were, I believe the third or the fourth smart shop who was opening in Amsterdam in that time. So it was really new. But I felt immediately this is a really gap in the industry and a nice business opportunity in the beginning. Yeah, absolutely.
[00:05:56] Mickelle: And so it didn’t come from some like deep spirit, like you didn’t have a journey as someone told you. Yeah, yeah, no, yeah. And so I love that you’re bringing this.
[00:06:06] Patrick: Yeah, I was just 26 also, I was quite young.
[00:06:10] Mickelle: You were 26? I
[00:06:11] Patrick: was 26. When I started this business. So and then you’re just a free guy who was living the dream kind of, I was, I had a good family background and was doing fine.
[00:06:22] Patrick: And I saw the business opportunity and it grow from there. And then later you’re going to be more mature and then learn about this world behind it as well. Yeah.
[00:06:32] Mickelle: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for that. And thanks for the introduction. I’d love to imagine what Amsterdam was like in 1998. Like that would be really long to transport there here today.
[00:06:41] Patrick: Yeah. For me, it was a great time. Yeah. It was really great. I had, I had a great time. There was no, there was no house, house music was booming. Everybody was joining and there was no, no wars, no trouble in the world. Everybody was fine. Yeah. It was a really good time. For me, a good time to be announced, a good time to be in Amsterdam for me.
[00:07:02] Patrick: I don’t know how different people will experience it, but for me, it was a great time. Yeah. And that’s
[00:07:06] Mickelle: when, when this, your smart shop was born, the spirit in which Haylin, you are a big part of health of what we’re doing at one nature calls. So tell me, We’re going to, I want to, I don’t want to leave Amsterdam in 1998.
[00:07:23] Mickelle: Fast forward to, tell us your story and I’ll, and then find the main event up here.
[00:07:28] Haylin: Yeah. Well, first of all, thank you so much for being part of our community here at When Nature Calls. We’re super lucky to have you on board. Yeah, a little bit like Patrick really, I love fresh perspectives and I love really personally the intersection of wellbeing and business.
[00:07:42] Haylin: I was born in New Zealand and actually quite a conservative. background, which is now quite funny considering what we’re doing. Does your family know? They know part of it. So yeah, I was born in New Zealand. I grew up there, but I had the amazing opportunity to study abroad in China and also in Spain.
[00:07:59] Haylin: So I left home at 15. And then now I’ve been in the Netherlands for the past almost six years and I came here to study, actually, so I’ve kind of entered this in a bit more of an academic route. Yeah, what were you studying? What was I studying? Yeah, it’s a little while ago, but not too long ago. I was studying clinical psychology with more of a specialization on neuroscience and I wrote my thesis on microdosing and gut health.
[00:08:22] Haylin: Yeah, then I started working here. I still love the academic side of it, but I felt And love with the business side and learning how that intersects with well being. So I went back and did a master’s in business management.
[00:08:34] Mickelle: So you’re both, I love this combination of pragmatism and passion for what you’re doing.
[00:08:40] Mickelle: It’s an almost academic way of looking at it. That’s it’s, it’s, it’s, I wouldn’t say I love, I love all parts of this industry, but this is a part that I haven’t had as much experience with. Really nice to hear your stories. So you’re a true peregrine halen. We always say Peregrines exist on every continent of the world, but the word means outsider.
[00:08:58] Mickelle: So you’ve been Shanghai, the Netherlands, and you left home at 15. Yes. What was that like or It’s so far my sister always moved there and I, I was like, you could have moved to the moon. Yeah. It’s so
[00:09:09] Haylin: far. It’s so far. I mean, and in a way there’s actually a lot of parallels with psychedelics and altered states of consciousness there.
[00:09:16] Mickelle: Yeah. And so what led you to then microdosing and having an interest in that? Was it just recreational use and then that was the natural step or tell us the story about that.
[00:09:27] Haylin: Yeah, I also find it I’m really happy with how I got into microdosing and psychedelics at large. So I was reading all these research papers and I thought, oh, well, there’s actually some really compelling evidence here, but I have to try it because otherwise I don’t know.
[00:09:40] Haylin: So I can read all my books and I can read all the papers, but until I try it and experience it, who am I to know? Making an opinion on it. So I tried it and the first time I had a very nice few hours staring at my house plant, so there was a little bit too much, never forget it missed my lecture, but that’s fine.
[00:09:55] Haylin: No, so that’s how I got into it, just trial and error. And then I really found that it helps just so much with a lot of the, yeah, the busyness of being a student here in the Netherlands, you’re expected to do a lot. The workload is intense, so I found that it helped me with that. And then that led to full doses as well.
[00:10:10] Mickelle: That’s you. You developed the personal relationship with how it worked for you and then took your research there. Exactly. Thesis. And that’s really interesting. So was this something you’re doing with other people or were you just kind of an early adopter in your sphere, doing it kind of on your own?
[00:10:26] Haylin: Yes.
[00:10:27] Haylin: Yeah. No, I got a very, a lot of concerned friends asking if I was okay because I was microdosing truffles. No, I think it was quite an early thing to do. So that was now five years ago. I mean, people have been microdosing for much longer than that, but I think relatively it was quite a, really in the beginning of it here.
[00:10:42] Haylin: Well, it matters where you’re from and
[00:10:44] Mickelle: how that’s taken and all that. All these things. And I know in our community, we have a lot of people who haven’t done things because they’re illegal. And so now they’re trying to find a place that’s legal. And of course, that’s changing around the world now, where it’s become legal in more and more places.
[00:10:58] Mickelle: When I first moved here, eight or almost nine years ago, there was a few places around the world, but this was and so that is a major, I think the Netherlands is known for this being kind of a place where there are a lot of experts or it’s the place that’s doing a lot of research or these sorts of things.
[00:11:13] Mickelle: So I think what you guys are doing here is a really nice entry for people who may have never tried this or they’re curious but don’t necessarily want to go on a full retreat or doses.
[00:11:23] Haylin: Exactly. I think like what a lot of what Patrick set up with When Nature Calls was to make it approachable and clean and.
[00:11:30] Haylin: Trustworthy and my background coming more from like evidence based research, I think really complements that well. But at the end of the day, you want people to walk in off the street and feel like they can see part of themselves in when nature calls, which I don’t think is the case for every smart shop or everywhere that you’re going to buy these kinds of products.
[00:11:48] Mickelle: Yeah. And I think that that matters. And so Patrick, what were you noticing in your, you’ve had a smart shop since 1998. Yeah. That is a long time. You are, you know, a lot about what’s going on. Yeah, so tell me the evolution. So your smart shop was hilarious thing. I’ve never thought of this way it is You guys named this in 1998 as the way it gets harder, just start.
[00:12:12] Mickelle: Yeah,
[00:12:13] Patrick: but But inevitably you’re
[00:12:16] Mickelle: also dealing with a lot of tourism.
[00:12:19] Patrick: Yeah, but in my opinion, it took a wrong turn. A lot of shops were more focusing on just short term, fast selling, aggressive marketing, focusing more on like tourists as well. And that’s during the time it was annoying me a little bit. I thought, why can’t we have it?
[00:12:36] Patrick: It is always the same. And it always has this stigma in this cliche kind of approach to sell these kinds of products. Even I see some what’s going on in even Canada or in the US in some states, I see the same repeats all over and all over. They always approach it as an dodgy kind of place where you feel you’re buying drugs and not.
[00:12:59] Patrick: As for like a plant medicine or like a supplement And I don’t know if it becomes did came because I’m getting older. I don’t know, but I think also my business mind is working in this place. I thought, why can’t we have a different approach where it’s more accessible, more for all, for every gender, for every person, age, it doesn’t matter.
[00:13:21] Patrick: When they’re walking and feeling like normally served as a normal product. And maybe also as a luxury kind of product, because it’s also a kind of luxury that the product because the product brings you somewhere. It’s not just a candy what you take. So you have to put a little bit more effort into it and a little bit more service, a little bit more quality as well.
[00:13:42] Patrick: So I thought, okay, we need to change the whole shop. It triggered me also a little bit because in the twenties I saw some dispensaries in the U. S. were opening up and some of them really looked like an Apple store. They were beautiful. And then it hit me. I thought, okay, why don’t we do it here? You know, a barbershop usually looks like a barbershop and then a grocery shop looks always like a grocery shop.
[00:14:08] Patrick: Try to do it different to stand out from the rest. And slowly it developed to what it come to this concept. But in the beginning I was changing the of the other one. So it makes more accessible, more clean looking, more high end. And then also becoming, became a little bit more selective with the brands I’m working with because everybody, of course, in the, especially in the Netherlands they’re all working with the same companies and the whole same wholesale distribution.
[00:14:33] Patrick: I thought, okay, we have to look over the board on what’s going on there. So I was looking also in different places in the world where we can maybe import some product by myself, especially from the U S I saw different brands. We’re had the same idea approaching of a product. Of course, they also sell products, which looks very aggressive and always looks psychedelic, but there were also brands where with you’re selling really cool brands.
[00:14:58] Patrick: I thought, wow. And that wow factor, that’s for me, my drive. And you need to come in in a shop or whatever you go, you need to have that wow effect. And this is your first. The first two or three seconds are very important. So if you come to the shop, it needs to have clean windows. All the lights need to be active and working.
[00:15:20] Patrick: The the staff needs to be perfect dressed up. For me, every piece of the puzzle is very important. And that makes it to a complete good picture and a higher brand because I’m building a brand. So through the years, I noticed also, I get in contact also with some companies who are interesting also doing some white label.
[00:15:42] Patrick: And I thought, okay, because I think your packaging is ugly and it’s not sustainable or too much plastic because now as well, there is a lot of microplastic going things going on. So I thought, okay, we need to change that. So slowly it also came on my pathway. And I get the opportunity to change also some things.
[00:16:03] Patrick: So then I start develop my own packaging as well. And that helps of course, to building the brand even more. And I noticed the reactions of the customers. We’re overwhelming and they come and keep coming back and more companies approach me from, Hey, listen, could we collaborate or partner or whatever, and so slowly it had a natural flow of growing to this point where we are now, even with this new, completely new concept as well.
[00:16:27] Mickelle: Would you say, I think another way to put it, how I’m thinking about it is like set and setting starts when you’re buying a product and so we all know that any kind of adaptogen or. Yeah. Psychedelic setting is the most important.
[00:16:41] Patrick: Absolutely.
[00:16:42] Mickelle: Yeah. What you’ll experience. Yeah. There is a valid part where you just want to buy a party drug and you want to go into the shadows and buy it in a doctor’s store.
[00:16:49] Mickelle: Totally not. Yeah. That’s not very approachable for most people. No. No. So this is maybe democratizing or opening that to more people. Does that?
[00:16:58] Patrick: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Because we see, of course, the, in, in the whole world is decriminalizing and people are you see more countries are able to, to do clinical trials as well.
[00:17:07] Patrick: So there is more study and there’s more information coming. So it also, there’s more published and also people read about it more and how the bits of this micro benefits of psychedelics helps for particular kind of issues. So then also I don’t want to say normal people, but more, there is more interest by society, is more accepted also by society.
[00:17:27] Patrick: Instead of then see it as a, as a junkie or a hippie or yeah. I
[00:17:32] Mickelle: think Steve Jobs did a good job of bringing
[00:17:36] Patrick: Yeah, exactly.
[00:17:36] Mickelle: Beginning of mass and then the tech leaders, and then we hear about these things.
[00:17:40] Patrick: Yeah.
[00:17:40] Mickelle: Shamans, like there’s all sorts of Yeah, exactly. S now that lead
[00:17:45] Patrick: and that’s happened over the last, but also the technology.
[00:17:47] Patrick: And don’t forget, of course, the internet also is a, is a big part of it because now we have access to publication on the other side of the world, let’s say New Zealand. We we see what’s going on there. There is also information there, or nice product there or whatever. So it’s more accessible worldwide.
[00:18:03] Haylin: Yeah. And that’s probably changed the path quite a bit of actually. Yep. Yeah. Exactly. Like, I think we really take the responsibility when it comes to set and setting to also not overly put ourselves in that person’s journey, right? We’re also never going to make therapeutic claims about what we’re able to do.
[00:18:19] Haylin: And there was a really interesting, I’ll interject with a little study here, but there was an amazing study a few years ago that looked about what media they showed people before they went into a psychedelic experience and how that affected the journey. And for this one, they used Disney characters.
[00:18:34] Haylin: They actually had like these visions of Mickey Mouse, of Donald Duck, because they were primed with that. So on a kind of a different level, but we really take that on board and away in the store that we both in the store and in the center don’t overly, you know, advertise a market that there’s these crazy visuals on our packaging, or there’s these insane, you know, expectations about what’s going to happen having a nice, neutral, clean, elegant space really supports the set and setting that we strive to offer our customers.
[00:19:01] Mickelle: And it doesn’t overly influence, like you said. It actually makes it more of a personal experience. Exactly.
[00:19:08] Patrick: But it brings so much more value to the product and to the experience and then the feedback you get it from is much more appreciated.
[00:19:17] Mickelle: Yeah, that makes sense. And it’s, I love how you’ve gone on this journey of being a smart shop and then seeing it for the internet and well, the internet was there, we all know, but like,
[00:19:26] Patrick: yeah, not as big as, yeah.
[00:19:28] Mickelle: And so on this journey of making, going from a smart shop. Which is a smaller sort of people don’t know in Amsterdam and now more places around the world. There’s some places where you can go in and buy things from A to Z, right? Like adaptogens, psychedelic substances, whatever’s legal. So that journey from here to where we are now, just like a biohacking center of self actualization.
[00:19:48] Patrick: Yeah.
[00:19:49] Mickelle: Tell me what’s different. I’m here in this space to tell others. What’s different about this space and what the inspiration was for that?
[00:19:56] Patrick: Yeah, it also had a naturally grow flow kind of weight. We were at Biohacking Summit, which is an organization from Finland who was doing some events here two times.
[00:20:07] Patrick: We were there and we saw all kinds of new techniques like red light, but also oxygen tanks and also like ice baths and all kinds of supplements. And the focus was of course bringing the best out of you by just simple techniques. And which can come which you can combine with our plant medicine products.
[00:20:27] Patrick: But I thought, okay, this is only in the weekend. Why don’t we have a shop like it’s through the whole year where you can go where you can talk, get some information build a community as well.
[00:20:39] Haylin: Just recreate that feeling of being at the conference where you had such a condensed, amazing amount of people who are so passionate.
[00:20:46] Haylin: You had your biohackers, but you had your a lot of shamans also visited. So yeah, there was a
[00:20:51] Patrick: really big energy going on there. So I thought, okay, that was one part of him. The other part of what it was, because the transition was also going after pandemic from using psychedelics more as a, not as a recreational kind of dose, but more as a microdose.
[00:21:09] Patrick: And since the pandemic, it accelerated. Because a lot of people, they’re having mental issues or they don’t feel that well. It’s a big
[00:21:18] Mickelle: shift.
[00:21:19] Patrick: It was,
[00:21:20] Mickelle: yeah. Before Corona.
[00:21:22] Patrick: Yeah. A big shift to me.
[00:21:23] Mickelle: People shifted. Yeah. All sorts of ways. Economy shifted.
[00:21:26] Patrick: Yeah.
[00:21:27] Mickelle: The world shifted.
[00:21:28] Patrick: Yeah.
[00:21:28] Mickelle: So this was part of that you saw.
[00:21:30] Patrick: Exactly. It was the right moment and the right time. But then we get people in the shop at the counter who were. They want to talk to you a little bit more private. They had some issues going on, which they can’t discuss at the counter. It’s also They can’t
[00:21:46] Mickelle: ask the internet. Like, you can ask them, it might be.
[00:21:49] Patrick: Yeah, but there is, of course, the internet, also a lot of people, they are done with all these Zoom calls and they want to meet just face to face a little bit more. So we thought, okay, there is a big need for more like a private setting. We are already supplying all kinds of psychologists here in in, in Amsterdam or therapists who are using our products as well.
[00:22:10] Patrick: And we thought, okay, maybe we have to look into it as well to just create a kind of space where we can maybe discuss, pick it up in as well.
[00:22:19] Mickelle: So it’s that deepening again, that deepening.
[00:22:21] Patrick: The deepening and more. So the use of more like a a health approach instead of like a recreational approach.
[00:22:28] Mickelle: Yeah.
[00:22:29] Mickelle: So move to wellness.
[00:22:30] Patrick: More move to wellness. We are not on wellness. Yeah. But we’re not like a wellness kind of spa or it, but we are more like a wellness for the mental health performance.
[00:22:42] Mickelle: Mental and somatic, I would say, because you guys have real diet. You have Ice bath. Yep. Yeah. You’re on a tick. Yeah. One thing I wanted to ask you guys about in this journey of making it come, people come together in community.
[00:22:54] Mickelle: My experience, my personal experience was a bit like your, Sam, where I was like using Blue Lotus for the last 10 years and like trying to bring it to people and be like, try this. And they’re like, you are crazy, Betsy. And doing it on your own and it has its own beautiful place, but there’s something special about when you come and find another person doing whatever it is you’re into at that time.
[00:23:15] Mickelle: So I had the experience when I came here, I did a class with Odin and I never met anybody else who was using Kanna in the way that I’m. was. And so doing that class, they brought it to the next level and I had a full like journey in his class. And I’ve never done that kind of before. Of course, maybe the dose is different,
[00:23:32] Patrick: but
[00:23:33] Mickelle: having an experience setting quality, exactly.
[00:23:37] Mickelle: But there’s something elevating about being in a class and moving your body and doing it with. And we all know it kind of lifts the experience and to do it with other people. And so this idea of bringing community in I think it’s really important. So can you explain because you guys have classes that are with substance and without you can do with or without.
[00:23:59] Mickelle: Yeah. And so. bringing community and movement. It’s natural that like, what was your, was there any, you had to make the rooms. There had to be some. Well, no, yeah.
[00:24:09] Patrick: The thing was that it was not only, of course, the fire hacking summit where we went to and we thought we need to have a space where we can Where you can come for the whole year.
[00:24:19] Patrick: The business was also growing. We needed a better office. I had more ideas for marketing. I had more ideas for also bringing the our own brand further, more products. Cause
[00:24:31] Mickelle: I can sense your obsessive quality from your last comment.
[00:24:34] Patrick: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:24:35] Mickelle: Attention to details.
[00:24:36] Patrick: Attention to details. Yeah.
[00:24:38] Mickelle: Really
[00:24:38] Haylin: are into that pure experience.
[00:24:40] Patrick: All
[00:24:40] Haylin: right. Thanks to you all for helping me find these things. But I think it gives the best possible experience for our community, because someone walks in and we went as far as curating a room scent, actually, that’s inspired by mushrooms, but so little things like that, someone walks into the space, it’s clean, the windows are washed, it smells beautiful, we kind of, I guess, give the framework for people to have that beautiful community experience, and again, just like we psychedelic experiences, We don’t overly influence how they experience our space.
[00:25:08] Haylin: We, of course, take a lot of time and attention into who is teaching in this space and who’s facilitating, but we leave it people to their own devices. And like one of Patrick’s most amazing ideas was to include a conversation pit, which we love.
[00:25:19] Mickelle: We also utilize, we meet there a couple of times every month.
[00:25:23] Mickelle: Because, but would you say that that’s a value of yours? Like this freedom or what, what would you say in the word is that you.
[00:25:31] Patrick: I don’t know. I just have it in my mind. But it was also the opportunity there because I was looking first for another space, which was much smaller. That didn’t go through.
[00:25:40] Patrick: Eventually, I found this place and this place was a little bit too big in the beginning. But then I was talking to the broker and she mentioned well, you can always facilitate this and you can always do this. And then I start. Okay. Wow. And then we can also do like, for instance, a matcha bar or we can do some cooking because we have a nice stove, again, with a nice luxury of an induction hidden under the, on the, on the shirt.
[00:26:04] Haylin: We need to have a b roll over this.
[00:26:05] Patrick: I like your aesthetics, you know. And so I’m looking at a little bit more in the kind of high end, but still feels natural and still needs to blend in everywhere. So then we can also do a room with like an ice bath to do cold plunge. Then we have an extra space where we can do also like doing podcasts or zoom meetings or business meetings, or we can do even like a private space for a therapist to sit down with the person or with a red light therapy, what we’re doing, they can sit here in a private setting.
[00:26:34] Patrick: So everything was growing. We can do this or this. And then we made a selection for. what we could do. Still, we are doing and exploring as well what we can do more because the, the, there are no boundaries in this kind of wellness industry. As long as it aligns a little bit, of course, our main vision, you know, it needs to be naturally plant medicine kind of techniques.
[00:26:56] Patrick: So bring it back to, to the source a little bit.
[00:26:59] Mickelle: It strikes me that you are the type of person that just follow, like you leak.
[00:27:02] Patrick: Yeah.
[00:27:03] Mickelle: And that is. And I
[00:27:04] Patrick: watch trends and I see, okay, this is coming up here. This is, is this interesting also for us? Does it fit in the concept as well? New product or a new technique or a new kind of smoothie, whatever.
[00:27:16] Patrick: I don’t know. Yeah.
[00:27:17] Haylin: Yeah. And then. Yeah, absolutely. Like, I think one of my biggest passions is acknowledging that there is a mental health crisis and there’s now at large also a health crisis. Right? We’re not just only having a mental health crisis. And the burden that that takes on society, coming from a business point of view as well, is enormous.
[00:27:34] Haylin: And so for me to be able to maybe like, you know, have some kind of impact on something like this, that can take off that burden a little bit, that can help people. I mean, that’s why we’re called a self optimization center. We don’t want to be the last resort for people when traditional medicine or therapies haven’t worked for them.
[00:27:49] Haylin: But encouraging this mindset shift, like, why don’t you just work on yourself? for the fun of it. And why don’t you just try and optimize, not that you’re depressed or you’re broken, but you can do better.
[00:27:58] Mickelle: And do you think that you’re, so for me, I see this in a lot of international people, there’s extra burden.
[00:28:04] Mickelle: So there’s different points in your life where there’s extra burden. And so I think being proactive is maybe what I would. Walkable to be and proactive in making your life more optimized is one word, but also just recognizing that you’re going through something
[00:28:20] Patrick: that is
[00:28:20] Mickelle: life. Everyone’s going through something like, but then for our community, it’s like you’re doing something extra.
[00:28:26] Mickelle: And so take care of yourself, live in your city, come to Amsterdam and try this in a really safe way if it appeals to you. And so I think that’s. What I hear you saying is like, don’t wait till you have a scary diagnosis or a burnout. The center is for everyday life.
[00:28:44] Haylin: Exactly. It’s a lifestyle.
[00:28:45] Patrick: Yeah, it’s a lifestyle.
[00:28:47] Mickelle: It is a lifestyle.
[00:28:48] Haylin: And I think like the company itself kind of functions like a very natural organism. Know that there is a trend and we adapt and we add something and we do this and we do that. It’s not a very rigid structure. And I think so often when people come into a space like a spa or a hotel, whatever you want to call it, it’s very rigid in what you can do.
[00:29:04] Haylin: But here it’s constantly evolving, constantly changing. I mean, you’ve been here quite a few times now. I think you have. I might do your best test. I think you are. But even like in a few weeks, you’ll see changes on our shelves. You’ll see adaptations. And so that’s also the culture that we promote. And I was saying
[00:29:19] Mickelle: that what I found here is that you guys are really at the cutting edge.
[00:29:22] Mickelle: And so the trainers you have in here, the classes you’re holding, they are at the cutting edge of what is being done in this space right now. Maybe in South American countries or where it’s part of the culture, of course, that’s a different set of cutting edge. But for what is commercially available or available every day, you guys are kind of at the cutting edge of these really advanced combinations of things going on, which I think is really important.
[00:29:45] Mickelle: But it’s also a huge opportunity if you’re in the city to try something you may have heard or wanted to, or think you need in your life, but the internet is not a reliable source. Not always. No, the social media doesn’t always love our opinions. And so that, I think. It’s a really, what I love is that you guys are encouraging people to do this in a safe and like sustainable way, the way because it doesn’t need to just be for the steam jobs or the Facebook.
[00:30:10] Patrick: And don’t forget, you don’t have to book a full day or a full weekend. You can also just come in, do a class, sit down, have a chat look into a supplement whatever, and then you can go off and. But you leave
[00:30:24] impacted.
[00:30:24] Patrick: Yeah, exactly.
[00:30:25] Haylin: Yeah, we hope. But I mean, some people might not. Like, you might come for your 8am pilates and then you’re in, you’re out, or that’s just your interaction with us.
[00:30:33] Haylin: We have terrors. We have so many people who have very emotional experiences and so everything in between. But we hope people leave impacted.
[00:30:40] Mickelle: And do you have people who come and take a substance and don’t feel anything?
[00:30:44] Patrick: Of course, because not every supplement is to feel some immediately a result. Some supplements take time, but it’s also just a piece of the puzzle.
[00:30:53] Patrick: It’s not only the supplement. We don’t sell magic here. It is, you have to do all the other things as well. Of course, your, your good eating, take your meditation, sport, sleep, very important. All those little things that makes you a little bit step ahead for the rest.
[00:31:10] Haylin: Yeah, an analogy which I’ve been loving lately is that if you go to the gym and after one time you don’t walk away with a six pack, you’re not upset, but it’s the same thing like if you’re microdosing, if you’re taking supplements, if you’re doing a class, you don’t expect after one, or you shouldn’t expect after one time that it’s magically going to be fixed, right?
[00:31:27] Haylin: So I think that’s the mentality we’re trying to teach people.
[00:31:29] Patrick: Business wise, I’m looking still for that product. Yeah. Once we, well,
[00:31:36] Mickelle: but it’s also a mindset, like you said. And I think people go to yoga, the endorphins are amazing. This is another deepening. And I would say, at least for where I come from, the United States, like people are very desensitized.
[00:31:49] Mickelle: So if they come in. It’s, it’s easier to go for a two day retreat where you’re taken out with mushrooms and you’re like, that gets through. But sometimes these more subtle or more nuanced experiences don’t always make it through the first time.
[00:32:03] Patrick: No, yeah, you have to integrate it in your daily life.
[00:32:06] But it’s long term,
[00:32:08] Patrick: way more
[00:32:08] sustainable, way more sustainable for everyone involved.
[00:32:12] Patrick: And of course, we don’t want to give people false hope because we’re not selling magic.
[00:32:17] Mickelle: You know, you’re selling experience. It’s like a yoga class, but it’s also for me, at least in my life, it’s been a relationship I have with this. So I get curious about it. It finds me like, then I find on yourself suddenly, then I meet someone here.
[00:32:31] Mickelle: And so it closes the loop a little bit.
[00:32:33] Patrick: Exactly.
[00:32:33] Mickelle: If you see it as something you’re having a relationship with Tylenol or a drug, I don’t have a relationship with
[00:32:40] Patrick: that. Yeah.
[00:32:41] Mickelle: That’s it. Blunt object, which is perfectly super.
[00:32:44] Patrick: Yeah.
[00:32:45] Mickelle: But I see this as more, more integrated approach to my body, knowing my body, knowing my, you know, world.
[00:32:52] Mickelle: And I think that really dovetails well with living internationally because you are having these moments of recognition where it’s a constant mirror for you and what you’ve been raised with and the assumptions you have about yourself and your culture. Because having these substances as a little bit of a.
[00:33:07] Mickelle: Support can help not ease it, deepen it, or make it more dimensional. That’s a really nice insight.
[00:33:15] Yeah. I like it.
[00:33:18] Mickelle: Just come in here. It’s great. But what I did notice when I first spoke to him is I had three small children. I wasn’t going to go into a headshot. That was not my vibe.
[00:33:27] Patrick: No, exactly.
[00:33:29] Mickelle: And not because I thought it was wrong.
[00:33:30] Mickelle: I just like literally was a soccer mom. Like I literally didn’t have. The skills to go into this as Marshall. So a shop like this where it’s more approachable and just feels more open. Yeah. Like I wasn’t doing something wrong.
[00:33:44] Patrick: No, exactly.
[00:33:44] Mickelle: You know, just take off my cap, you know what I mean? Like I respect it, but it felt dangerous to do this for me.
[00:33:51] Mickelle: It feels like it’s
[00:33:52] Patrick: a
[00:33:53] Mickelle: soft landing,
[00:33:55] Patrick: but also they. I don’t want to put the other shops, of course, in discredit, but it is, they’re working on they don’t do, they don’t do their best to get rid of the stigma as well. Because if you still keep selling all these items with big marijuana leaves on it and yeah, then you still get that stigma and you will attract also those people who are into that.
[00:34:15] Patrick: But for me, I want to see the other side of the world. There is a lot of people out there who are looking for this kind of space. And I thought it was a new gap.
[00:34:24] Mickelle: Yeah. I love how pragmatic. You want to take it back to pragmatism. I love it. Yeah. I will always take it to the spiritual. We’re in good. We’re in a good conversation.
[00:34:32] Mickelle: But I think there is a place for it. So it is a shadow product. Like there is like, it’s people want to be bad at a certain point. Right. And Amstrad has that.
[00:34:42] Patrick: Yeah.
[00:34:43] Mickelle: Marketing.
[00:34:45] Patrick: Yeah, exactly.
[00:34:45] Mickelle: But they’re trying to shape it.
[00:34:47] Patrick: Yeah.
[00:34:47] Mickelle: But yeah. So there’s a place where, but what you’re saying is there’s a, the world is big and open for another kind of thing.
[00:34:53] Patrick: Yes. Yeah.
[00:34:54] Mickelle: Substances. Yeah. I totally agree. The
[00:34:57] Patrick: more more going to the source raw foods or going into nature because of the shifts in the, from the pandemic and of course worldwide, there’s a lot of things going on. So people are more looking for and spend time on themselves as well now instead of a materialistic kind of objects.
[00:35:13] Mickelle: You only get one body.
[00:35:14] Patrick: Yeah,
[00:35:15] Mickelle: it’s shocking. Yeah, . It is. Shocking. So now if we’re in your center now, I think you have a really great base and you have a community starting leading, cutting edge classes going on with substance or plant medicine. What is next in 20 years? If I were to sit down with you, Patrick, and you haven, what are you looking back at and being so proud of?
[00:35:34] Mickelle: What is your vision?
[00:35:35] Patrick: Yeah, the vision is to expand to more cities and maybe also go international.
[00:35:40] Haylin: Definitely go internationally.
[00:35:43] Patrick: I love to see. Off we go. Yeah. I love to see going to Barcelona or Milan or to Berlin. We just met, of course, the girls from Denmark to have another place in Copenhagen. But also the vision is also to expand it more even into hospitality, maybe.
[00:36:01] Patrick: Because this concept is perfectly to expand it in hospitality as well. So you have your base. But then in a nice, of course, Mediterranean country where it’s a little bit more sunny than in the Netherlands, but then you book a week or a weekend and then you have really good food, raw food, original natural food.
[00:36:18] Patrick: You’re hiking in the morning meditation during the day or yoga classes, the supplements and then getting unstressed from the stressy world, the rat race, what’s going on. Yeah, I like to see that. Sign me up. Yeah.
[00:36:30] Mickelle: Sounds quite nice. Let’s do that. But for now, I feel like I get that feeling when I come into your center.
[00:36:35] Mickelle: Yeah. The center of Amsterdam, which I think is a huge deal. Yeah. So this is a little sanctuary in a city. Yeah. There’s a whole bunch for you in the city. We all know.
[00:36:44] Haylin: Especially as an expat, right? Yeah.
[00:36:47] Mickelle: There’s no country house that I escape to or my grandparents house. This is, I live here all the time. And it is, it’s a beautiful city, but it is still very busy.
[00:36:56] Patrick: It is. It’s an international, it always has been through ages. It’s a very international traffic business society here.
[00:37:02] Mickelle: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:37:04] Patrick: Biking or ringing your bikes.
[00:37:07] Mickelle: Yes, I think that you’ve accomplished, so you’ve accomplished the reverse and now you want to go out and it’s amazing. Yeah. Integrating them.
[00:37:14] Haylin: Yeah, you know, like for a wider spectrum of experiences. And I think we’re not super busy with becoming like a household name that everybody has to know is when nature calls. But I think what we, or me personally, I can say would love to see is that maybe we’re not a household name, but our practices are a household name.
[00:37:29] Haylin: That meditation is okay, that it is normal, that everyone meditates and writes in their gratitude journal before work, for example. So that’s something I think more speaks to our mission and our vision.
[00:37:39] Mickelle: It’s a little kind of
[00:37:41] Haylin: Lotus . Yeah. Yeah. Macha with mushrooms.
[00:37:44] Mickelle: I wanna ask you, Patrick, as we wrap up, ‘cause I’m gonna be mindful of your time.
[00:37:47] Patrick: Yeah.
[00:37:48] Mickelle: I wanna know what trends are. Tell us what you see on the horizon for this space. What is this the thing that we will hear about in the next two years that you kind of have be on?
[00:37:58] Patrick: I think kanna, kanna and of the plant from South Africa has a lot of potential. They mix it up, of course, with all kinds of adaptions and herbs or supplements.
[00:38:10] Patrick: So you got a nice tailor made blend, but kind of is very, very interesting. And it comes in different forms as well. Now we have a good supplier and finally a really high quality. And for the next two years, the focus for me is, is there, of course, to build the brand. More because the brand needs to can grow much more to have eventually the to accomplish the vision I have for the future for the next coming 20 years.
[00:38:33] Patrick: But yeah, kind of is, could be very interesting.
[00:38:37] Mickelle: It’s been a huge for me personally.
[00:38:38] Patrick: Yeah.
[00:38:39] Mickelle: I have a title, the blends you have here, but as, as a relationship with the blend. Yeah. It’s very. Hey, what about you? What do you see the trends in the, in the industry or within those?
[00:38:51] Haylin: Gosh, yeah, there’s a lot going on right now.
[00:38:53] Haylin: I think there’s so much studies, especially on microdosing. I think, you know, it’s still a hype, but there’s still so much research that we need to do to show its benefits and long term effects. So I’m quite interested to see what comes out of that and then how that influences, of course, Big Pharma as well.
[00:39:07] Haylin: That’s always going to be on our You know, on our horizon, Kanna as well, for sure, for sure. If you see the growth in its popularity in the last year, there’s a lot of potential there.
[00:39:16] Mickelle: Yeah, that’s amazing. Okay, I’m gonna ask you another question then, because you didn’t give me a fringe enough answer. I need, like, what’s on the fringe, like, what’s on the outside.
[00:39:25] Mickelle: What are the people that, what are the early, earliest adopters doing that none of us know about yet?
[00:39:32] Patrick: Oh.
[00:39:33] Mickelle: I’m asking for a friend.
[00:39:34] But what?
[00:39:37] Patrick: I don’t know.
[00:39:38] Haylin: I think cross modalities are becoming more of a thing, like doing combined also to maximize efficiency for busy lifestyles. So that might be like, for example, we’re looking into doing cosmetic acupuncture while you do your yoga.
[00:39:52] Haylin: Can I
[00:39:52] Mickelle: sign you up for that? Yeah, limb thick massage. Well, I think you guys are on the cutting edge already and so that’s my path. Like, I just want to be in your brain and be talking to the vendors you’re talking to.
[00:40:03] Patrick: Yeah, but we don’t want to cut corners.
[00:40:05] Mickelle: Yeah, of course.
[00:40:06] Patrick: No, I want to go straight to the to the point, quality, very selective, and just bring in good, again, that wow factor, not only by the experience, by for not only by the entrance, but also the experience.
[00:40:18] Patrick: Yeah. It needs to be a wow factor. It needs to do something with you.
[00:40:21] Mickelle: Yeah. It needs to interact. Yeah. Yeah. Nice. Cool. Well, I won’t tell you guys are on the cutting edge of what I know is happening in the space. So thank you for creating this beautiful place. It means a lot to have a space like this. It’s so aligned.
[00:40:36] Patrick: Yeah.
[00:40:36] Mickelle: And yeah, we’ll continue. We’re announcing our partnership with you guys this week for House of Harrigan. So we’ll do some events here. Give people a good sample of what it is you are up to here. And as it’s always evolving, we will have a very fun.
[00:40:49] Patrick: You’re doing
[00:40:50] Mickelle: that, I think.
[00:40:51] Patrick: Thank you.
[00:40:51] Mickelle: Amazing.
[00:40:52] Patrick: so much
[00:40:53] Mickelle: for coming on and for sharing all this with us and please tell people how they can get in contact with When Nature Calls and whatever else you want to share with our listeners.
[00:41:04] Patrick: Yeah, of course they can always come and check our website, whenagicalls. nl, or email us info at whenagicalls, we are on all social media platforms as well, easy to find, that’s no problem. You can always get in contact somehow for us, no problem.
[00:41:16] Haylin: Or just come and visit, we’re very friendly, we’re open seven days a week, and you can just come into our coffee bar, you don’t have to come because you have a class, if you want to that’s great, but no, just come and have a chat with us, explore the products, try for yourself.
[00:41:28] Patrick: If you don’t want to do coffee, we also have a nice ceremonial cacao. Of course the organic matcha and it’s coming more and more, but just have a chat. Yeah, it’s fine.
[00:41:38] Mickelle: Make a relationship with the space. Yeah, exactly.
[00:41:41] Patrick: Yeah.
[00:41:42] Mickelle: All right, everyone.
[00:41:42] Patrick: Speaks for itself.
[00:41:44] Mickelle: Come check it out when nature calls. Thank you again and we will talk to you again soon.
[00:41:49] Mickelle: Thank you. Okay, that’s it for today. I hope you’ve enjoyed our show. For the latest insights on living internationally, join us at HouseofPeregrine. com to find out how you can connect with our community. Let’s craft our life story with intention together.