[00:00:00] Mickelle: Welcome everyone to the House of Peregrine podcast. Today I am joined by Anna Roberts of Anna Roberts coaching, and I am very excited to bring her story to you today. Um, I really look forward to sharing her insights and wisdom for all of you who are living abroad or are thinking of doing so. Welcome Anna.
[00:00:18] Mickelle: Can you please give us, just tell us a little bit about yourself.
[00:00:22] Amanda: Hey, well, thank you for, for having me. Um, so I’m Anna Roberts and I grew up in Manchester. So I grew up in Manchester, always had a love of living in France. I’ve always had a love of French things. And that naturally led me to, to live in Paris where I lived for, for 10 years.
[00:00:42] Amanda: And it was that time living in Paris that I discovered You know, there’s some, there’s something about being an expat, being someone who lives abroad that is quite challenging. And I realized that a lot of other people had this, so that led me to create Anna Roberts Coaching. So my coaching practice that I’ve been doing for the past almost two years now.
[00:01:02] Amanda: Um, so yeah, that’s a
[00:01:03] Mickelle: little introduction to, to me. Yeah, so I want to back up really quickly. I love the story always about why when you knew you wanted to live abroad or when you knew you were different than everyone else because I Assume not everyone in Manchester goes and lives abroad just like most of my guests.
[00:01:20] Mickelle: So tell me When you knew you wanted to live abroad or that you knew something was different about you.
[00:01:27] Amanda: Yeah, I love that the idea of something being different about me because I think that’s something that I have, um, fought against for a long time, which we will probably go into detail about a bit later.
[00:01:38] Amanda: But it was definitely when I was in high school and we started learning French lessons and I was like, I love this. I love being able to speak another language. I love being able to communicate in something that not everybody gets. And I’ve always loved studying. The maps, like globes and maps and different cultures, I’ve always done that since I was a little kid.
[00:01:57] Amanda: So it felt like a very natural progression to then start learning a language. And that just instantly clicked when I went on holiday for the first time to France with my family. And I was trying to speak to everybody. I just realized that I had a, a kind of mini obsession with France and French things and the culture and learning and interacting with people from different places.
[00:02:19] Amanda: So yeah, I think that was when I realized that not every kid is like this. So maybe just something a little bit unique.
[00:02:26] Mickelle: Yeah, of course. But do you feel like you were born? This happens, I think, a lot, especially with France, but it’s like, I was born in the wrong place. I was beamed into the wrong, wrong
[00:02:36] Amanda: Yeah, maybe because as I spent more and more time in France, I realized that there’s a huge part of French culture that I absolutely adore, which is the kind of philosophical, quite deep, quite dark aspect of Looking at things and in the UK.
[00:02:54] Amanda: It’s not that deep in my experience I mean, I’m obviously generalizing and I feel like yeah There was a definitely a natural connection to that and the more I dug into that the more I realized that this is something that Who I am I was always drawn to people who were quite philosophical and stuff So I’m like this is an aspect of myself that I’m not really owning and a lot of people in France I feel like you know, they do philosophy in school and So it’s a natural thing that they’re kind of brought up to experience.
[00:03:20] Amanda: It’s part of the culture.
[00:03:22] Mickelle: Yeah. Nice. And so, when you were, how old were you when you were learning French in school? I was 11. 11. Nice. Yeah. And what you do now, I want to build us to that point, but so, when you were living, so you went to Manchester, you grew up in Manchester, you moved to France, then you moved back briefly to Manchester, but then you moved permanently to, or not permanently, but for 10 years to Paris, right?
[00:03:50] Amanda (2): Yeah. Yeah.
[00:03:52] Mickelle: And in that time, um, you realized something really important, which I’ve, I’ve heard you talk about and I’ve heard I’ve talked to you about it, but I want us to talk about it with our viewers, is. You realize maybe it’s part of, part of people’s journey, spiritual journey, to live in another country.
[00:04:10] Mickelle: Tell me, tell me the story about this. Yeah,
[00:04:14] Amanda: yeah, and not everybody wants to live abroad, right? Not everyone has that kind of desire to, to experience that. And I think it’s because it’s a specific calling that if you have that desire, that urge, that nudge to go and live abroad, there is an aspect of you within that is taking you on that path, so then you can be confronted with your awakening process, which is the different identities, the different parts of you that are not true to you, and the Path of living abroad is going to be challenging as all expat coaches say, you know, they’re very cliche.
[00:04:52] Amanda: It’s, it’s challenging. You’ll find it hard. It’s very challenging and you’re going to have to accept, see, accept and integrate those parts of you that you’re resisting currently because if you’re not you’re going to have a very miserable time living abroad and it will just be You’ll get there in the end, but you’ll have a lot of suffering to begin with.
[00:05:11] Amanda: So, if you will be shown parts of you that you didn’t know existed, that you’re resist that you’re resisting, the way things have to be, the way you are in your the way your culture is back home, the way humans are in general, you have you will be presented with different ways of thinking and ways of, like, accepting that this is this is how things are.
[00:05:36] Mickelle: Um, so if I can go back and and summarize that. Sure. Your experience and your theory, and I, I love this actually, is that when you’re, maybe when you’re born, maybe when you’re 11 and you’re learning languages, there’s some part of you that wants to go on this journey, which is a very, from my experience, a very, uh, it’s almost like getting married or having a baby.
[00:06:01] Mickelle: It’s, it’s like, um, life defining, but. There’s some part of you that’s calling out to go on that journey and maybe you’ve always wanted to live abroad or maybe there’s just one part of you that really wants this exploration and to bring out parts of yourself. Do I have that? Right? Yeah. Yeah. So then once you’re on the journey, once you get yourself in another country, that process of.
[00:06:24] Mickelle: Again, you can call it personality defining, you can call it a spiritual journey. Those parts start coming up and go, okay, let’s play. Let’s figure this out. And that is, can be the hard parts of your journey. Or as you help coach people through, tell me what you would rather people do. Because we all know, and we’ve all been maybe the person who’s just struggling in life abroad.
[00:06:52] Mickelle: Um, so what would you prefer people to experience?
[00:06:55] Amanda: So, um, yeah, well, people do struggle living abroad and that’s not to, um, that’s not to deny the fact that there are a lot of difficulties and a lot of, and a lot, it’s a, it’s a process. There’s just a lot of admin, like let’s just say admin alone. Yeah. But outside of that.
[00:07:17] Amanda: Really, like, if you look at it and if you connect back to your why, why did you move abroad, what was the intention to move abroad, what is, what is going on there, and are you living that why, or are you resistant every time? A good, a key indication of like, if you’re in resistance to that is Are you basically just suffering and this is just suffering going on for a long period of time, like I’m talking years, basically, and you’re not doing anything about it.
[00:07:41] Amanda: The, there are challenges, but this is a, this is a process, you know, like changing paradigms, shifting your identity, this is going to take a, you know, it’s not one size fits all because it really depends on the type, the, the depth of belief that you’ve had, how ingrained it is for you, how long you’ve been working on that belief.
[00:08:02] Amanda: Um, But I would encourage to, and it’s so cliche to say and it’s so hard to do at the same time, to be in that discomfort. Because something is trying to emerge, you know, when we’re going through difficulties, I mean, putting aside all the admin stuff, which, yeah, that is just a, a fact of life. Like it’s annoying.
[00:08:23] Amanda: That’s the way it is. But again, that’s acceptance. You know, when you’re in resistance to that, like, why do I have to do this? It’s so annoying. Everything’s so slow. It’s so much quicker back home. That comparison, this is when it gets to be painful. Yeah, it’s causing
[00:08:38] Mickelle: suffering. Yeah. Okay. So I want to back up and make it a little more tangible for people because we’re talking a lot in these like, um, more lofty spiritual realms in a way.
[00:08:48] Mickelle: So I want to make it more tangible because I know you had your own journey that brought you to the work you’re doing now. And so tell us a little bit about your time in Paris. Yes. Might make it sound like a prison sentence, like 10 years in
[00:09:01] Amanda: Paris. Well, it is a chapter of your life. That’s how I, it’s definitely, yeah, it was definitely a chapter of my life.
[00:09:09] Amanda: And I, I always talk about that with, with my clients to see your life in chapters, to kind of allow yourself to go for that process. Um, my, my journey living in Paris was, I obviously always had that. Nudge to go and live somewhere else, to go and live in France, to learn a language, to integrate with people who are French speakers and French people.
[00:09:29] Amanda: And I was constantly in the self doubt, constantly thinking, is this the right path for me? Where, where do I belong truly? Where should I be going next? Listening to thoughts of my family, who were saying, you know, they were supportive, but they also kind of wanted me to come back. Thinking that I should come back.
[00:09:48] Amanda: Thinking that maybe in my hometown is where I should be. That this is just a six month stint. Which is what it originally was meant to be. And this process really consumed me. Questioning. And I was constantly searching for an answer. Thinking that the answer had to be Is Paris where I truly live? And trying to figure that out and really like, get a decisive answer.
[00:10:11] Amanda: Is this where I’m going to spend the rest of my life? Maybe it’s this place, maybe it’s that place. And it was just awful. Really awful, basically. And I realized that a lot of this question, this self doubt and this eternal question was It’s not just something that I dealt with, it was something that a lot of expats, a lot of people who lived in Paris dealt with and I was talking to them and I also made that mistake of talking, spending a lot of time questioning them rather than using my own inner knowing and I realized that this is something that’s quite, quite pervasive in with foreigners living in their non native country.
[00:10:44] Amanda: And it’s bringing back that sense of what is it that I want right now that allowed me to gain peace and a sense of home within myself. That was the thing that I was looking for. And so that was my, kind of, journey of going from constant questioning, constant self self doubt, constant worrying, to being more present.
[00:11:11] Amanda: And to, um Hearing the uncertainty and not letting myself get carried away with it. So, over that 10 year period of Paris, it was a lot of difficulty. But I’m super, super grateful for that experience and,
[00:11:24] Mickelle: um,
[00:11:27] Amanda (2): it’s made
[00:11:27] Mickelle: me more. And so what did that process look like? It sounds like you spent a lot of time in suffering and that kept you Um, maybe not even in Paris, were you between two places, were you in the space of wandering so you couldn’t even land?
[00:11:44] Mickelle: Is that how it felt? Or were you always just. Suffering ‘cause you didn’t know because that is this life, right? This life is a bit of being in, in, in a state of two places at once. Yeah. It is this liminal state of being two places at once or maybe even three places at once. And depending on your family or how many countries you’ve lived in, maybe more than one place or more than two places.
[00:12:07] Mickelle: Yeah. And so. I think your process, if I had to look back at it, you went from suffering in that to being empowered in that, or finding yourself is home instead of a place is home. And so what was that like? How, how did you come up with that process? So.
[00:12:29] Amanda: Yeah, it was definitely that. It’s rather than trying to find home in an actual place, it’s finding the home within.
[00:12:35] Amanda: Yeah, a lot of people, and I, and I was one of those people, like, even though my home was between Manchester. and Paris. I was also traveling a lot, I loved loads of different places, and for me it was every time I heard all the thoughts saying this is maybe where you should be, this is where, maybe where you should move to, I tried to just park those thoughts and not let myself get carried away.
[00:12:57] Amanda: And also have that understanding that Yeah, we are kind of like, one way to describe it is being in, in like a limbo state because we’re not fully, fully, fully here, but we’re also other places as well. But at the same time, we can be fully here and be connected to our hometown and still love these places and still like this and still have the opportunity to go traveling somewhere else.
[00:13:22] Amanda: So it’s not like the duality of like this place or that place. It’s this place. And I, I have a different life to a lot of other people. I don’t live the path that a lot of people, especially my family, no one has lived abroad. No one has lived abroad permanently. No one has been an entrepreneur. No one, you know, and I’m the first one.
[00:13:45] Amanda: And I have to keep being, telling myself, reminding myself that this is what I’m choosing for myself. And I can’t compare it to anything that’s gone before me. And so, yeah, it’s kind of like, Marrying all of these things up and there isn’t just like one set definition and that gave me so much, so much peace of mind and so much kind of
[00:14:06] Mickelle: calm.
[00:14:08] Mickelle: To realize that you’re making your life up any way you want and that no one you know, you haven’t seen this modeled. So realizing what you’re doing is A, important to you and necessary, something inside of you wants to go through this process, and B, that you don’t have a model for it that you can find.
[00:14:26] Mickelle: Do you think? That’s what led you to coaching others into this process.
[00:14:31] Amanda: That I didn’t have a model for it.
[00:14:33] Mickelle: Yeah. That you wanted to. So let me back up. So at House of Paragon, we always, our motto is it’s now. And so it speaks to this notion that you can’t live life in the future and you can’t live life in the past.
[00:14:45] Mickelle: And this impermanence that you experience when you’re living this way, maybe you know how long you’ll be in a place, maybe you don’t know how long you’ll be in a place, maybe you’re going completely by intuition, but what drives me a lot of the time is I did go through a lot of, not suffering, I wouldn’t call it, but a lot of uncertainty, a lot of loneliness, and so part of what House of Peregrine is about is this notion that we pay it forward, To or we’re trying to help people along on this path, or maybe we were the early people doing this, and now we’re helping others do it with more ease, not just with quick tips or travel tips or these things, but like, almost like soul level tips of this is what the journey looks like.
[00:15:24] Mickelle: This is what the journey you’re normal. And now, and actually, instead of guiding, like telling people steps of how to do it, it’s almost like sitting next to them, asking them questions so that they can actually create. The life they want by going within is a different approach than say, these are the 10 spots you need to visit in Amsterdam.
[00:15:44] Mickelle: And here’s a, you know, this is the thing that, that. usually works. But when you’re making your life up from something deep inside, you have to find another way. And so I feel like that’s what you’re trying to guide people through is this process of going within, seeing what these parts of yourself are telling you and making decisions there and finding a home there instead of in what their family did or what the life that they left behind very much on.
[00:16:15] Amanda: Yeah, it’s building that confidence in your own choices and your own decisions. And at the same time, like you mentioned, normalizing a lot of the struggles. Like I don’t want to like focus so much on the struggles and the, and the challenges and stuff, because obviously living abroad is. Also amazing, but it’s, it’s saying it’s not one or the other, it’s not black or white, you know, it’s, it’s kind of eradicating that, that all or nothing thinking and, and that just because you might have a really bad day, doesn’t mean that you have to wobble and then start looking at plane tickets and then deciding maybe I should go back home.
[00:16:48] Amanda: It’s okay. It’s, it’s okay, let’s just take that time, be with yourself, show yourself some compassion, sit with it, cry maybe, and then the next day you’ll probably feel a lot different.
[00:16:59] Mickelle: That’s coming back to your power. And if you don’t, that’s also good information, right? If you don’t Yeah, and if you don’t, yeah.
[00:17:03] Mickelle: And so really just making decisions from this really inner knowing. Tell me about the parts So we all know that changing countries, more location independent, is actually not a new thing. It’s been happening since the dawn of time, right? And so Tapping into this is something that really gives my life a lot of meaning.
[00:17:23] Mickelle: Tapping into, I mean, I have ancestors that obviously I grew up in the U. S., but my ancestors came from Europe most recently. And so I have that story in my heritage of people leaving their home country, going across the plains. Finding a new place, setting up a new state. And that’s part of who I grew up knowing I am.
[00:17:43] Mickelle: Um, it’s the Mormon, Mormon handcart companies that came across the planes. And so I find a lot of resonance with their stories. And I didn’t realize that until I moved abroad myself, that there was part of me that this is part of who I am. Um, and not everyone has that literal of a story to look back on.
[00:18:01] Mickelle: But I think what you’re saying is that. Even though maybe you don’t recently have that story in your growing up, there might be part of you that is trying to play out that story for one reason or another. Tell me about these parts that you work with. Um, And we know parts work in, um, psychology, is working with different parts and different stories, but how do you view these parts?
[00:18:23] Mickelle: What is your paradigm?
[00:18:28] Amanda (2): That’s a, that’s a loaded question, but I love the idea. I’m
[00:18:32] Amanda: just throwing these at you. I also love the idea that this has been happening since the dawn of time, and that also gave me so much peace of mind when I realized that, because obviously I studied history, I love that stuff. And just going back to that really quickly is when you notice, when you read this stuff, like, Such a person lived in Paris for a bit, and then they went back to the UK and then they went somewhere else, and then they went here.
[00:18:52] Amanda: And it’s, it’s not a biggie. It’s No, it is no biggie. But yet we put so much, um, so much, um, heaviness and weight on it if we’ve not had that story within our, um, family history, for example. Like, so something that you could relate to. But, um, no, mine was heavy. Yeah. They,
[00:19:11] Mickelle: they were escaping religious persecution.
[00:19:13] Mickelle: They died. It was a very heavy, pretty. Yeah, it’s pretty heavy, like people died. My great grandmother was, her mother died in childbirth and then she was abandoned again on the plane, saved by her, you know, this handcart company. She was almost sold to Native Americans. Like there’s all, there’s a very rich, it’s a very adventure rich.
[00:19:35] Mickelle: Dire story that I was told growing up right and so it doesn’t have to be that way But also when you leave your country right now There’s a lot of meaning behind it if you’re if you’re thinking about giving your passport up if you’re thinking of Settling in another place or you just want to visit for a year or you just want to experience it for you There’s so many different ways of doing this, but it’s full of meaning I think for most people Mine just happens to be very heavy.
[00:20:00] Amanda: Yeah, no, that, that is quite heavy. And that could work the other way around as well. If you don’t want to, if you kind of associate it with moving with that, but yeah, there’s definitely so many different meanings and so many different, a lot of weight that people put on, on these decisions, which is why people get caught up in the stay or go question for, which can be for years.
[00:20:19] Amanda: Parts work, so what I. Are you asking like what I would do with clients or how I’ve kind of done it myself? Yeah,
[00:20:27] Mickelle: have you not, how you’ve developed a way that you work with your clients. And so I would just love to know how you’re thinking about these parts that maybe you’re calling us to experience something new or are calling us towards a certain personal growth that we may not be conscious of.
[00:20:45] Mickelle: We may be conscious of, fully conscious of, but sometimes we’re not conscious. Our subconscious is calling us. To do or grow or experience something. And so I feel like there are four different ways I could just come up with just from psychology to describe this. But I want to know how you’re thinking about it.
[00:21:02] Mickelle: Okay, so. I’m just going to ask you really big, long questions this whole time and see how you do. You’re doing great. I’m like going back.
[00:21:10] Amanda: Yeah, I had something and then it’s just like, it’s just gone. Yeah. I’m going to have to just let that go in and it’ll come back
[00:21:15] Mickelle: to me. So how are you thinking about these parts of ourselves that are wanting us to have this experience of moving to another country or wander as it were?
[00:21:25] Amanda: To wander. Yeah. Um, it’s just that, it’s just like that calling within. So. When you’re stressed out and when you’re triggered and you’re trying to figure something out There’s no way that you can get in touch with the, with the little voice inside That’s giving you that little excited nudge, that little, like, that’s the thing, anything that’s positive Anything that’s like a positive vibe is the tell, like in poker, that’s the tell, that’s where you should be going And yeah, at the same time, there’s that voice that’s saying no, what if that happens?
[00:21:55] Amanda: What if you end up going and you regret it? What if you end up going and it’s Disaster or what does that say about you all of these negative things heavy things about limiting beliefs about your identity about shame That’s built up like inside, but that’s not been seen yet. It’s not been integrated yet these These are all things that are holding you back, that your old identity is trying to keep you in the status quo, it’s trying to keep you where you are.
[00:22:22] Amanda: When you can see that, see the voices, hear the voices, and sit with it, sit with the shame, sit with the, with the discomfort. And the shame might make you, might feel really, really painful as well, because you’ll probably sense, you know, you’ll probably sit there and cry. Yeah, I can feel it. When you’ve done that,
[00:22:41] Amanda (2): yeah, when you’ve done that, you just have this quiet voice.
[00:22:47] Amanda (2): afterwards. And if it’s, if it’s got any positive, any kind of lightness or calm to it, that’s
[00:22:56] Amanda: always a sign that this is where you, this is the next step for you. And people who have that nudge to go somewhere or travel. In general. This is, this is the thing that they, they’re wanting. There’s gonna be challenges, there’s gonna be, there’ll be fear as well.
[00:23:12] Amanda: But if the little voice underneath is, is saying, Yeah, we should go, we should go. And that gives you a little bit of, of excitement, then that’s the direction to be going in. But I always think that the difference, because a lot of people have difficulty just, Distinguishing between what’s the fear and what’s the intuition.
[00:23:28] Amanda: The intuition is going to take, you know, if you’re not used to listening to intuition, it’s going to take some time to get used to it, but it’s the calmness around it. There’s no sense of urgency. There’s no, um, desperate or triggered or must do this. I have to leave. I have to do that. That’s your ego. The calmness is, is your intuition.
[00:23:50] Amanda: And if there’s a tiny little bit of, uh, I think Bashar who says that, follow your, follow the. The thing that’s got them a little bit more excitement than the other thing. That’s, that’s the thing to try.
[00:24:01] Mickelle: Okay, so I think I have. So in your practice, some people, and you, you’ve experienced this, I’ve experienced this, I think everyone who’s lived abroad has experienced this, but we experience it more often.
[00:24:12] Mickelle: We get stuck. We get stuck within a, like going round and round. And so when you’re having people come to you, they’re stuck. Maybe they’re stuck in should I stay or should I go? Did I make the right decision? Should I stay longer? I’m freaking out. I don’t know why. They’re stuck. So you’re helping them through the process of learning how to process this panic or Annoyance or ruminating that they’re doing and then bringing it down.
[00:24:42] Mickelle: So processing the panic, processing the shame, processing the top level emotion that has them stuck and then bringing it down, running it through what I call like this, uh, intuition filter. So you can run through all of the panicked emotions, all of the things that are keeping you stuck and then get down to the essence of what’s actually.
[00:25:03] Mickelle: Your intuition or your pride or your must a lot of people call it ego. Yeah. Like you said, I think ego is a hard word, but maybe conditioning is another word for it. And so it’s really teaching people to get unstuck. And so they can make really aligned decisions or maybe process their grief because there is grief.
[00:25:22] Mickelle: We know there’s grief to moving abroad or maybe processing their guilt of leaving behind their family or. Processing their guilt of bringing their family with them and watching them go through a hard time if if you bring your family with you and your son or daughter, your spouse is having a really hard time with the move that might keep you stuck even so there’s so many ways we can get stuck and I feel like you’re helping people move through that in a really great way because it’s a process you’re going to need again and again in your life.
[00:25:52] Mickelle: But what I’ve experienced, maybe you have too, is people who are living in a different country, living abroad, whether intentionally or for a job, they’re doing it way more often. They’re, they’re being faced with these, these big things way more often. And so having a process or a practice around that, I think is super powerful.
[00:26:11] Amanda (2): Yeah.
[00:26:11] Mickelle: And is that one of the reasons people come see you? Do I have that right?
[00:26:16] Amanda: Yeah, yeah. So, it’s several different layers to it, so yeah, it’s, it’s about processing the, the emotion, the heavy emotion so we can, we can get underneath, what’s underneath here, like what’s the thing that needs to be looked at, so, the shame.
[00:26:30] Amanda: The shame which we, the shame or the grief, normally the shame and guilt about leaving family behind. Grief about maybe coming to the end of your chapter and not wanting to admit that because it means going into a lot of uncertainty and that’s freaking scary. So people would rather stay in this limbo space until someone,
[00:26:48] Amanda (2): you know,
[00:26:48] Amanda: helps them through it.
[00:26:49] Amanda: Or force, something forces or something. Yeah. Yeah. And then. The magic behind it is like, when, and, and I do this, and I, obviously I do this, and when you face the thing that’s, that’s painful, it’s so horrible. You just have this instant resistance of being like, oh, I just don’t want to look at that. And when you do, floods of tears, and then so much lighter.
[00:27:11] Amanda: It doesn’t have power over you anymore, and you’re like, okay. Where are we going to go to next? And I see this happening with my clients. Like, there’s so much resistance to I can tell where they want to go, what they want to do. They tell me this, but then it’s through working what’s the heaviness behind it, what are the beliefs behind it, what are you making it mean about you?
[00:27:31] Amanda: And that’s when When we’ve dug under that, that’s when you can have that light and lightness. But there’s also, so there’s processing the emotions and then there’s also looking at things like how fulfilled so we can take a more coaching practical angle as well, which a lot of people resonate with is looking at your life globally.
[00:27:50] Amanda: You know, there’s a wheel of life, which is a great coaching tool. It’s used everywhere and you can do it yourself. It’s super, super useful. Where you look objectively at different aspects of your life that are important to you and how fulfilled are you. In those aspects of your life. Because if you’re not fulfilled, you know, if we go back to Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, if you don’t have the basic things fulfilled, like connection, sleeping well, eating well, drinking enough water, exercising, these things like that, if you don’t have that, you’re gonna feel like crap.
[00:28:21] Amanda: You’re going to be questioning everything. You’re going to be wobbling all over the place. So that gives you a good indication as well, because the instant thing for people who live abroad, when they’re not having a bad day or when they’re feeling not great, the instant and probably the easiest thing for the mind to, to consider is.
[00:28:37] Amanda: But this is not the place for me. I need to leave. That’s the solution. I actually know it’s like staying there, figuring out what’s going on. Where is there a misalignment in your life? And then fixing it, correcting it in a way, kind of calculating it.
[00:28:51] Mickelle: And so that’s, that’s a way you help navigate people through.
[00:28:55] Mickelle: So getting that strong base, using different tools, Wheel of Life, all these things, coaching practices to get them. To correctly identify what the pain point might be that they need to correct, instead of just automatically going, well, it’s time to move back. That’ll be easier. Because as we know, reintegration is not, it’s, it’s not for the faint of heart either.
[00:29:14] Mickelle: So no, it’s the same process on the other side. Yep. But the answer very well, maybe you need to go back to your home country. That may will be the answer, but having the assurance that you’ve gone through a nurturing and correct process within yourself instead of just a gut reaction, panic, or just not being able to handle it is a much better way to enter that process, in my opinion, and a more intentional way of making decisions in general.
[00:29:39] Mickelle: And so you’re giving your clients this process to be able to make these decisions, find out where the real pain is at a moment in their life where they might. Really need it.
[00:29:49] Amanda: Yeah. And, and that’s kind of one of my, one of my gripes about the coaching industry is that a lot of it is geared towards selling the desire, selling the dream, you know, there’s a lot of move abroad coaches, there’s a lot of coaches who are digital nomad coaches, like selling this dream of I have my laptop on the beach and everything’s great.
[00:30:09] Amanda: The reality is that’s marketing, you know, I’m not saying that all of these coaches are like bad and I’m sure that they do help them have that stability in some process, but it’s selling this dream is great, but that’s not the reality. And also that might not be what you need because there’s a lot of the grass is greener somewhere else.
[00:30:31] Amanda: Which when you go live somewhere else, you can still have the grass is greener somewhere else, although grass is greener actually back in my hometown, so it is sometimes it’s not just about moving somewhere. I don’t, I know if you have that nudge, then yeah great, but there’s that saying
[00:30:44] Mickelle: wherever you go there you are.
[00:30:47] Mickelle: Yeah. Yeah. It’s so relevant to living abroad as well or moving abroad or thinking your problems don’t go away. They follow you, your joys, whatever you have going for you, it all comes with you. So doing it on the beach gets old after a while if you’re doing it for the wrong reasons or out trying to outrun something.
[00:31:05] Amanda: Yeah, and you might even feel worse because you’re literally living paradise. You’re living in paradise. You’re living your dream and you’re still not fulfilled. You’re still not there. And that’s, that’s basically what my whole coaching is all about. You know, finding that fulfillment, finding that inner alignment and, and, and living that and taking away as well.
[00:31:25] Amanda: The false ideals of what it is, and the shame around that you’re not living your best life, which I have a thing about that expression. There is, it’s not, it doesn’t have to be, you don’t have to be on 24 7. You can have some really bad days, and it doesn’t mean anything about you, doesn’t mean you’re doing anything wrong.
[00:31:44] Amanda: It’s just life.
[00:31:46] Mickelle: There’s this theory that’s coming up for me. I think a lot of what you’re doing is based in psychology. I have a very deep passion for psychological theory and stuff. And so when you’re talking about this, I feel like there’s a difference. So in, um, in the like marriage world, marriage counseling, relationship counseling world right now, there’s a lot of going on about how marriage is a crucible, right?
[00:32:07] Mickelle: Like you’re going, you go into a relationship to learn about yourself, to grow, to bring up those parts of you that need. Um, and it seems to me that you’re, you’re approaching it a little bit the same, right? So when you move abroad, it’s a time, and I say this all the time about living abroad, it’s a time of rapid growth.
[00:32:24] Mickelle: So it really is. You can resist that because it’s going to happen to you. Like it finds you. Moving abroad is basically like opening your heart and being like, okay, time to grow. And you don’t have a choice. Like you enter passport control and you’re suddenly more. Vulnerable than you’ve ever been in your life.
[00:32:43] Mickelle: If you’ve never lived, you’re thinking about visas or again, these are administrative things, but on a more growth level or an unconscious level, the same thing is happening. In my opinion, you’re opening yourself up to this growth. And again, it finds you whether you want it to or not. Yeah. And so doing that with intention or at least knowing there is.
[00:33:05] Mickelle: A process that you can go through and that everyone’s going through, I think is, um, really Yeah. Helpful.
[00:33:11] Amanda: Yeah. And yeah, it’s, uh, you are gonna be confronted with so much stuff and, and it’s, you know, just life is a, a process of, of learning and, and, and growing and figuring out and shedding layers of who you thought you were.
[00:33:25] Amanda: But the living abroad is. It just accelerates that about by a hundred or a thousand and also if you’re an entrepreneur as well That’s that’s another thing and I’m sure being a parent is a is another thing I think there’s like three I would say I’ve identified these three, but I’m sure there’s a lot more in life as well But you know it is It’s, yeah, it just, it’s a catalyst, it speeds things up and, and it’s okay to feel overwhelmed by it, you know, this is why there’s a big industry of people like us helping, helping people living abroad because it is challenging, like it is.
[00:34:01] Amanda: A lot to handle, to deal with, and a lot of people do it by themselves and then they spend years
[00:34:07] Mickelle: not enjoying it. And I always say it’s an additional life stage for that reason. I’m like, where’s my baby shower? Like I had a baby shower when I had a baby. I had a bridal shower when I got married. There was no shower for moving abroad.
[00:34:19] Mickelle: There was no wisdom. There was no, and I think that’s for a number of reasons and maybe we can go into this. So your clients, what I’ve noticed about people who live abroad is they’re fiercely independent. So House of Peregrine. Peregrines are a more independent bird. They’re the fastest bird in the world.
[00:34:35] Mickelle: They are very smart. They’re very capable and they, they just, they’re more solitary than maybe other birds. And so I find that about people too. And so do you find this in your clients? Cause I know that you coach a lot of entrepreneurs and high achieving expats. Do you find that they have to learn a new skill in maybe asking for help or maybe connecting more differently because they’ve gone a long way on this?
[00:35:01] Mickelle: Being kind of a island.
[00:35:03] Amanda: Yeah, yeah. Uh, yeah, definitely. It’s, it’s hard for them, I think, to, to reach out because it. And also if you’re an entrepreneur, because you’ve kind of got that resilient, you know, that entity of being resilient and you know what you have to do and something doesn’t work. So you have to just figure it out.
[00:35:19] Amanda: Everything’s hard. And so, yeah, everything’s hard, but I don’t think they are also. allowing themselves the same, you know, it’s, it’s not realizing that life living abroad is also a process in itself. You know, you don’t just become an entrepreneur and then you’re, you’re fine at day one that you have to go through that.
[00:35:38] Amanda: You have to go through that process of learning what it is and having to just deal with it, accept it the way it is. And underestimating, I think, a lot of the time as well, how, quite how difficult it can be, and quite how, like, how it’s going to rock your foundations. It’s going to pull everything that your identity leant on for stability, or, and you won’t realize it.
[00:35:58] Amanda: A lot of it is unconscious, how much you’ve relied on being a certain nationality, or something like that. And, and, It can take you by surprise, and I think a lot of entrepreneurs who don’t have that, or high achievers, who don’t have that natural instinct then to find help for it because maybe they don’t think that there is help for it, because it is quite a niche
[00:36:18] Amanda (2): market.
[00:36:21] Amanda (2): It’s a niche
[00:36:21] Mickelle: in the best market.
[00:36:24] Amanda (2): Yes,
[00:36:24] Amanda: and also because we’ve got that, that, um, I’m just gonna hustle my way through this and figure this out. And sometimes it’s not the same process that they need for both.
[00:36:34] Mickelle: And it really is skill building in a way. If you think about it, it’s like you’re learning a new skill.
[00:36:39] Mickelle: Maybe you’ve gone a long way, even moving abroad, maybe even living abroad for 10 years, not realizing that you’re white knuckling it through when you don’t have to, or maybe you’re, you’re making decisions out of fear in some areas of your life and you don’t have to, or even you could be doing the exact same thing with the assurance that you have run it through your, like I said, your intuition filter and having that quiet knowing that you’re doing the right thing instead of always wondering, like you said, always calculating, always weighing the options.
[00:37:10] Amanda: Because that’s exhausting, right? And you’re not actually living. Because if you look back, and I’ve had this with clients, one of the biggest fears is looking back in a few years time with regret that they spent, you know, maybe a three year posting. Um, of being in that posting and not actually being there.
[00:37:31] Amanda: Because they’re in their mind, they’re thinking Well, maybe I should go home. I’m feeling guilty. I’m feeling this. I, I, I don’t want to be here. How can I get out? And, and then they feel like, well, I’ve wasted that time. I don’t, I don’t want to do that. And so, yeah, you, you’ve got to, like, if you’ve made that decision to live abroad, you’ve got to make that decision.
[00:37:50] Amanda: You’ve got to be, this is my intention. This is my decision. Be here. It might feel uncomfortable. Okay. Be here. You don’t have to figure it out and trust that, like one of my affirmations that I love is I trust where my energy is taking me. I know what is meant for me. I won’t miss out on. So building that faith that you’ve got this, like you brought yourself to live abroad.
[00:38:15] Amanda: If at some point you don’t want to be there, you will take yourself back out again. It’s fine. You’ve got it. You don’t have to keep questioning it. Just be present right now.
[00:38:24] Mickelle: Be here now.
[00:38:28] Amanda: Yes, which is very simple, but you know, when the mind, you get all that mind chatter and it finds sneaky ways to get in the back door and be like, I’ve got you.
[00:38:39] Amanda: So you’re brought back into the, the questioning realm and the mental realm. And that’s not
[00:38:45] Mickelle: where life is. Be here now is a moment by moment choice for a lot of us. So I think that that’s a, for me, that’s a close to a mantra I have for myself. I feel that in my body, right? Cause we’re as internationals, at least for me, I have family back.
[00:38:59] Mickelle: I’m always there too. And so I give myself time zones. So like I’m here now and then I give myself a hour where I can be there. And think of my family and think of my life there. And then I come back here. So just being intentional, knowing that I want to be there. I want to be with my family, thinking about my family, my parents, and then I come back here or else I’m always in both.
[00:39:24] Amanda: Yeah, yeah, giving yourself that time, a lot of people do that, you know, especially if they’ve got a really busy, very loud mind that they’ll just actually set an alarm and say, okay, this I’m going to just spend 10 minutes and you can think about whatever you want to think about. These are the 10 minutes to start panicking, basically worrying.
[00:39:44] Amanda: And most of the time when you set yourself that 10 minutes, your mind will just be so still. It’d be so still because you’re allowing it to be.
[00:39:52] Mickelle: Yeah. But I have the opposite where my brain’s like, thank you for letting us go everywhere. Now we’ll do what you want. Yeah. So my, my brain’s like, thank you for the workout.
[00:40:03] Mickelle: Now, now we’ll do what you want. But yeah, it’s, but it’s also this, this, uh, this knowing I want to be with my family in my thoughts and I’m the oldest child. My parents are of course aging like all of our parents, but I want to spend that time thinking about my life there and the people I love. And then I come back to Amsterdam.
[00:40:24] Mickelle: That really helps me. Not be thinking always in two different places. So, um,
[00:40:30] Amanda: yeah, and it’s such a, it’s such a common, I mean, I think everybody feels this, even if they don’t have regrets about where they’re living or they’re contemplating leaving. It’s just one of those things of having to allocate time or find a way of processing it, maybe journaling or something like that.
[00:40:46] Amanda: The guilt of it. Leaving aging parents behind, and especially, you know, you’re the oldest daughter, I’m the oldest daughter. There’s that level of responsibility that we kind of have as well, and that we’ve grown up with in the family, so yeah, that adds another layer
[00:41:01] Mickelle: onto it. But part of my journey has been realizing that I want that.
[00:41:04] Mickelle: Does that make sense? So it’s a, it’s a values I’m going to be doing a video on that. And I’m going to be doing a video on how to do a values based move to not completely shut it out. So there was a time when I completely shut it out. I was like, I don’t want this responsibility. It’s not fair. And now I’ve brought it back into a level where I’m like, I do, this is a value of mine to be close to my parents in the way that we can be.
[00:41:24] Mickelle: So how do I bring that back in and live my values even while I’m abroad? And I’m not taking care of them physically. I’m not. But how do I. Give the thought that an oldest daughter does and do what I can from here. And that’s been my journey of like completely shutting off the first five years to then slowly coming back into my values after I figured out who I was.
[00:41:47] Mickelle: Now I’m figuring out my values and what, how I want to live them and be in a country that I want to be in. And so I think it’s. It’s a really beautiful process. I’m so, I’m a little bit jealous. You get to guide people through, cause this is life changing work that you’re doing. So tell me in the last few minutes we have, cause we’re almost at time.
[00:42:03] Mickelle: Tell me what it’s like to work with you. Who do you work with and then how people can find you. So you have some space. Tell us about your programs. I’d love to hear about it.
[00:42:13] Amanda: Yeah, so I have my one on one program, but I am also launching very soon my group program called Next Level, which has that spiritual angle to it as well because we’re, we’re shedding old identities, older versions of ourselves.
[00:42:29] Amanda (2): And
[00:42:29] Amanda: it’s all about the community element as well, which is, um, which one on one coaching is great. It’s deep, but the community aspect is, is missing and I think we learn so much more in the community, bouncing ideas off of people, hearing that this person has experienced the exact same thing as us. This is, uh, I’m moving towards this right now.
[00:42:49] Amanda: So we can work
[00:42:50] Mickelle: with you one on one. That’s one option. Yeah. And that’s kind of a personalized going deep. Maybe situational, how many weeks do you normally work or how, what does the container look like?
[00:43:01] Amanda: Yeah. So the container for the one on one is three months and that, yeah, so three months, nine sessions go into super, super deep and that is called anchored.
[00:43:11] Amanda: So we’ll take the process of becoming. You know, anchored in yourself, know what’s going on and then the mindset shifts that are needed and then figuring out what is it that you actually want so you get rid of that second guessing and self doubt and stuff like that. That ruminating we were talking about.
[00:43:26] Amanda: Yes.
[00:43:26] Mickelle: Yeah.
[00:43:27] Amanda: Because you don’t want that. We want to be present, we want to be focused and confident in our decision to be where we are. And the The group program I’m running is, because I’m just running it, so it’s still the beta, but I’m very excited about this and it’s going to be a two month program, so eight sessions, eight weekly sessions, where we get to dive deep and, um, learn in that group, group setting.
[00:43:51] Amanda: So that is, that is something that’s coming out in the new year. February, I don’t have an exact date for that yet.
[00:43:58] Mickelle: So February 25, you’re coming out with a group program, eight weeks, how many people are in that program?
[00:44:05] Amanda: I’m going to keep it small. So I’d say about six, ideally around six or some five or six, just so it’s, I have enough space to work to personalize it as well, not have it too big.
[00:44:17] Amanda: So yeah, that’s, that’s, that’s the idea. Yeah, feeling, feeling good about this because I just think it’s gonna accelerate the process. So much quicker as well.
[00:44:27] Mickelle: Connection always accelerates things in my experience. And you do need to build that community, whether you’re just starting out. At least for me, I’ve had four different stages of friends, because people move on from the city.
[00:44:38] Mickelle: Are your programs online? You’re only working online, is that right?
[00:44:42] Amanda: Yeah, all online. So, um, I’m reachable on my Instagram.
[00:44:48] Mickelle: So just send me a DM if, uh, if that interests anybody. Yeah. So we’ll post it below. Tell us your Instagram handle. It’s Anna Roberts Coaching. Yeah. And I love your videos. They’re, they’re really, you can tell that you’ve lived it.
[00:45:02] Mickelle: So I love your videos on there. And then do you have a website you’d like to share with people?
[00:45:07] Amanda: Yeah, I have a website. It’s AnnaRoberts. co. So just C O. Yeah.
[00:45:13] Mickelle: So you can find, yeah, you can find Anna. at her Instagram or at the website. We’ll link that all below. I want to thank you so much for joining us today and your unique take on this.
[00:45:24] Mickelle: I, it really resonates with my own experience and I’m glad people like you are now doing this work. Maybe it was happening before and I just didn’t know, but I really think that if people, I
[00:45:33] Amanda: didn’t come across it.
[00:45:34] Mickelle: Yeah. If people are at the beginning of their journey, or if you’re at a crossroads, or if you just want to find a way to To that intuition filter that I talked about, it’s a funny name, but it’s how I think about it.
[00:45:46] Mickelle: Uh, give Anna, give, reach out to Anna. Cause this is a really rich process. And I think at some level we all have to learn it, whether we do it on our own or with some coaching or a guide. So yeah, I would encourage everyone to reach out. Look at her Instagram or maybe consider joining her program, um, in 2025.
[00:46:05] Mickelle: Well, thank you so much, Anna. I loved having you on. Thanks for sharing everything and we will talk to you soon. Thank you so much. I’ve loved it. It’s been great.