Mickelle (00:00) Hello everyone and welcome to the House of Peregrine podcast.

Today I’m excited to be joined by Yann Ghisalberti

Mickelle (00:06) is a IT specialist turned ADHD coach for adults and adolescents. Yann, I want to get right into it with you because our previous conversations and the work you’re doing is really, really important and also

the way you’re going about it, I really enjoy and I want people to get to know you and your work. So go ahead and if you just tell us briefly where you came from and then we can just start talking about something we both love nerding out about, I think.

Yann (00:35) Yeah, so thanks. First of all, thank you for inviting me, Mickelle. So I will start by introducing myself. So my name is Yann. I’m an ADHD coach based in Amstelveen, and I’m currently living my dream. I’m French. I think you can hear that with my accent. And I love adventure. So that’s the main reason why I’m an expat.

and really fulfilling a second dream is the adventure and the expatriation. So I’m from the east of France, from Alsace. My parents were born there, are still there, never really moved, went on holiday, really close by, and are not very adventurous. Me, it’s not my style, so…

After graduating as an engineer, I decided to move to Paris and work there. I worked in IT in the corporate world and I met my wife in Paris at work. So after five years in Paris, we in Paris, we in Paris, decided to move to the south of France because the quality of life is much better than Paris.

It’s really nice as a single person, great, but as a family, Paris is not very great. So we moved to South of France and our son was born there. After five years in the sun, we got a bit bored and not a lot of opportunities and we wanted to take a bigger step. So my wife found a job in Amsterdam.

in the Netherlands and we moved the entire family because it was the really perfect opportunity to give an international dimension to our kids. So we moved to Amsterdam nine years ago over the Christmas period. After one week here, kids went to school, Dutch school, and while we were working, both my wife and me full time.

None of us took a break. So you can imagine it was quite difficult. After nine months we…

nice anecdote. My son once asked us about, asked us when we would go back to France because this time holidays were a bit long. And then we realized because our kids, yeah, so our sons were five and 11 at this time, the youngest one was a bit lost and thought it was just for a short period and…

the transition was very difficult for him especially. we felt quite, yeah, there was kind of guilt and stress. But yeah, we were really so busy that we didn’t have time to look back and we made it work. After nine months, we had to look for another house because…

we got problems with the landlord. So we bought a house that needed full renovation. So that really didn’t add a lot. It didn’t make it easy. But at the end, we have a really nice house that is as we want, especially I’m kind of multi-tool. So I did a lot of stuff like painting, electricity, floor. So that was tough with a full-time job. So my wife was still having a…

Mickelle (04:05) Yeah.

Yann (04:06) Thank you.

Mickelle (04:07) If I can interrupt. So you’ve done a lot of hard things at once. So you’ve moved countries with young children. You’ve remodeled a house. You’re both working full time. Any one of those things is actually a huge stressor. And you’ve added now four.

Yann (04:11) Yeah.

Yeah, no, that’s true.

Mickelle (04:25) Okay,

why not? Let’s just do it. That’s the attitude of a lot of international people, think is like, I mean, everything’s hard. So let’s just, let’s get the life we want. And so then, yeah, so then.

Yann (04:36) Yes, we

were pushing ourselves to the limit. at the end, were, you know, we were, as you can imagine, it was quite very difficult, stressful, intense. but we didn’t give up because we learned during our childhood to push ourselves and to be resilient.

So I’m going to explain later on why, because after some time in the Netherlands, I got diagnosed with ADHD. But let me first also explain a bit how I managed to get this diagnosis. So I left the corporate world, the corporate world, and I joined Doctors Without Borders to…

because I really wanted to have a meaningful job, not a meaningful, a fulfilling job. And this experience was really, really nice. Especially I met a really amazing psychologist there that helped me a lot and provided me amazing guidance. At one point he recommended me to get an assessment on ADHD. And to be honest, when the diagnosis came,

I was not really surprised. I suspected it for many years, but I always avoided to face the reality. Facing the reality was a bit too hard, I think. I lacked understanding of ADHD. I was also unconsciously believing that ADHD cannot be treated or cannot be fixed. So…

I prefer to be in denial and I never really looked into it. But moving abroad, complex work, tough situation, kids, everything made it so difficult that I needed to get help. as you can imagine.

Mickelle (06:27) And this is

a common experience though. Later stage diagnosis is pretty common worldwide. But especially if you’ve been raised with this resilience and you just think everything’s hard, if you stay in your same country and you kind of have that kind of infrastructure, you can almost kind of make it. Is that right? Like you were not feeling the effects of this in your home country as much maybe.

Yann (06:34) Exactly.

Mickelle (06:55) because the stressors were not adding on and you were able to cope.

Yann (06:57) So first of

all, my home country is France. And in France, ADHD is not really recognized for adults. It’s changing. But a few years ago, many psychiatrists mentioned that ADHD disappear when you get adult. And there are still a lot of psychiatrists that believe this. The young generation, no, not anymore.

but the old generation still. So first of all, was really, you know, I wouldn’t have been diagnosed in France. So that’s for sure. Suddenly, my parents saw that there was something going on when I was a kid. So they asked my family GP, and the GP said, yeah, I’m full of life. That’s much better than a kid completely zombie. So just do sport.

So I did four times a sport a week or five even, which helped to cope and compensate and then I learned coping mechanism. But also in terms of mentality, the generation of my parents were not asking for help, were not going to see psychologist. It was really kind of for many reasons. One, it’s kids after the war.

So you don’t complain, you just go on. Two, it’s shame on the family. And three, psychologists or psychiatrists are just for crazy people, psychopaths and people that need to be locked in a in a prison or a hospital. So yeah.

Mickelle (08:33) There’s a lot of

stigma. That’s a lot of stigma. That’s a lot. No wonder you had. Yeah. And I think it’s pretty worldwide. I mean, think even tell semi-recently around the world ADHD, ADD, we’re only recognized as childhood disorders. And so this is relatively new. So it makes sense. And it also makes sense why we’re seeing an uptick maybe in diagnoses. And then

Yann (08:36) lot of schema.

Mickelle (08:57) I have read studies that show that in the international population, there’s actually a higher incidence of people who are neurologically diverse in some way. I can link them below. You don’t have to comment on it. But I do find it very interesting because I think it’s pretty common, your experience, and you can comment on this. Do you see this a lot in your clients where they really do, they have a lot of capacity and

and a lot of they see, they don’t see the downsides of some things. So they over commit or they take on challenges that maybe other people might shy away from. Do I have that right? Do you see that in your clients?

Yann (09:30) the on my clients, typically, the ADHDers, especially experts, manage to cope, manage to find solutions to deal with stressful situation because definitely moving abroad is very stressful. So and they they do it by by really pushing themselves hard.

really amazing resilience, able to do impossible things and definitely a lot of employers in the Netherlands or lot of employers in the high tech or look for profiles like this that are performant, pushing themselves hard, are really over achievers, know. So yeah, I see it lot.

Mickelle (10:14) Yeah. Tell me about that

because we spoke about this briefly before we started recording. So I want you just to go over this profile of using fear or stress as a motivator, like for an ADHD brain or body. Tell me about how that works. I would love to hear your explanation.

Yann (10:26) Yeah.

I’m going to use

my own experience. when I was a teenager, learned that unconsciously that fear and anxiety or fear of failure, fear of police, fear of a lot of things was helping me to control myself, to study, to push hard, to get results. And fear…

It’s proven that fear generates chemicals in the brain that are basically pushing yourself and helping you to focus and think straight. So I unconsciously found out this. Yeah.

Mickelle (11:07) So it helps to focus you basically, right? Like it basically

acts as a mechanism to focus your.

Yann (11:12) focus and control impulsivity because impulsivity is really a lot of ADHD a lot of people are really looking at the attention part at the focus that the learning disability for concentration and all that stuff but impulsivity is really one of the other big stuff from ADHD and fear can help to basically

Mickelle (11:14) in control. Yeah.

Yann (11:39) get the second of delay in order to control your impulses, which is lacking in generally when having ADHD, the second is lacking and that’s why we say things we shouldn’t. We jump and do things that are dangerous because this second of

delay that where we can use the knowledge and the experience that we have to decide if doing this action or saying this is a good idea, we are lacking it. So, and that’s why also stimulants are helping a lot. Stimulants medication like Ritalin, so Methylphenidate or Dexamphetamine. These stimulants for people when it works.

Mickelle (12:32) you

Yann (12:32) they help really to give this delay and give them the ability to access their knowledge because ADHD is not about not knowing, the problem is about not being able to access the knowledge at the right moment when taking an important decision and that’s a really big importance on the impulsivity. So coming back to the fear and my own experience, so

By learning this coping mechanism when I was a teenager, child, teenager, and young adult, yeah, I managed to succeed in life. Of course, it was tough, but I managed to succeed. But then I paid the price of it, because when you start to use more and more a coping mechanism and you overuse it, the coping mechanism

becomes a problem, it’s not a solution anymore, but becomes a problem. So this is when anxiety comes in, and anxiety and chronic anxiety. And that’s a reason why many people with ADHD, especially adults, also have, there is 50 % of adults in terms of statistics that have also anxiety disorders. So that’s the main reason because, yeah, fear is working, but at the end it’s not good for you.

So there are other approaches and other solutions than using fear. And then you can also sub…

Mickelle (13:55) And that’s probably

when you see people, right? Like you specialize in international expats and children and adolescents to help them come up with different coping. Do I have that right? Because I can imagine it would be great if people came to you proactively, but I can imagine there’s a lot of people coming to you that need new ways. These tools are no longer working. They’ve maxed out or their bodies can’t handle it or they’re…

Yann (14:22) So when

copying mechanism doesn’t serve you anymore, it’s time to change them and to look for other solutions. Because copying mechanism that create more problems than solutions is just useless. And it’s dangerous. that’s one of the really big principle in psychology. Stop doing what doesn’t work. Really.

Mickelle (14:23) relationships.

Yeah.

Yann (14:47) I’ve

seen a lot in myself as well, know, blaming myself, feeling guilty about a situation, about doing again and again the same mistake. This is a human response to failure or to situations like this, using guilt to try to memorize, remember the experience. But when you use guilt so much,

and at the end you still do the same mistake and then you are automatically unconsciously just increasing the guilt but it doesn’t change the result because you still do the same mistake because the problem is not it’s more related to the brain how it works you know ADHD and how the

brain process the information of the situation. So you just increase guilt, you just feel bad about yourself. So it really impacts your self-esteem. So why should we continue to use or to feel guilty? Because it doesn’t serve, it doesn’t help. So I’m…

Mickelle (15:53) Yeah, it’s gotten

you, it got you through to this point, but now it’s no longer working. And it’s actually maybe hurting, hurting you and leading to burnout or worse, or deterioration of relationships or health or, and I would like to, I would like to ask you really quickly. So this is something I’m thinking about a lot, is this fundamental difference. And I want to hear your thoughts about this. It’s not like,

Yann (16:02) Exactly.

Exactly.

Mickelle (16:15) What I’ve heard and it really resonates with me and I want to hear your thoughts is ADHD brains, autism, autistic brains. They’re not regular brains and bodies with a deficiency. They’re actually built and wired differently. Is that, does that resonate? in a way when you’re using these mechanisms, it’s, it’s, would you consider masking or it’s trying to fit your body and your brain into it’s translating. that.

Yann (16:32) Yeah.

Yeah,

and then I can really also, this resonates a lot and mixed with what you mentioned about some studies, there is really a link between the environment and the ADHD brain. So if you take someone with ADHD that is really passionate about photography and loves to be in

in the nature, take pictures there, he is going to function very well and he’s going to be really amazing in his job by being really patient, because a lot of people, people we say, they cannot be patient, but they can when they really love what they do, being patient, really being super sensible to a…

details and to know is to really take the right picture in the nature and everything goes very well and the person is completely functioning.

Mickelle (17:39) They’re in flow,

they’re like, and they, and what I’ve heard also, which really resonated is that ADHD or ADD, that spectrum, it’s not a lack of attention. It’s actually, you have too much attention. It’s just spread out. It’s like the aperture on the camera is letting in too much light.

Yann (17:53) Exactly.

It’s the problem that is about the stimulation. it’s really, there have been studies around the core, the eye and the capacity to get, or the fact that the eye gets too much information.

or behind the eye there is the part that I forgot the name of course. The part behind the eye that is basically getting and transforming the visual information into signal for the brain that is over-functioning. So some studies are saying that this could be a reason why too much information arrives to the brain and the brain is just not able to manage all this information.

Mickelle (18:44) or at least it’s

not able to manage it in a way that helps you fit in in a school work environment the same way. And so I…

Yann (18:50) Yeah, because to

take my example before in the nature, it’s really like there is not so much stimulation. It’s totally different because when this person comes back to Europe to show his pictures and arrive at the airport with a lot of people, a lot of noise, a lot of smell, a lot of…

stress and then to the subway where it’s totally crowded persons start being total stress and and that’s really but but being in middle of a wild and dangerous animal was really not stressful but being in the middle of a lot of people a lot of noise a lot of light especially light or so I don’t know if I have heard a lot of myself as well

complaints about the intense light in shops. It’s really, they make it really, it’s on purpose that there are a lot of lights so that you really look at everything and that for me it’s, I hate shopping for this kind of reason.

Mickelle (19:45) Yep, shops.

Yeah, smells. And so that that it goes to this notion that I really want to further in the world, assuming that it’s accurate, is that it’s not necessarily that there’s something deficient about this. It’s a world that’s built for people who are built a different way. And we’re it’s an actually an appropriate response. So if someone who

this were built for were to walk into a place that the music was blurring, there’s strong smells and there’s light that’s flashing in their face. They would also react this way, but that’s just not how their systems are built. And so it’s actually what I would like to maybe, I like what my assumption about this is, is this is actually an appropriate response to the stimuli that’s coming in. it’s just not the same for everybody. The way the stimulus comes in is not the same for everybody. Yeah.

Yann (20:44) Yeah, and

I totally agree with this. We all have different reactions to this situation and the environment is very, very much important. One of the first advice from a psychologist treating, helping me with ADHD was to…

to change environment and adjust the environment so that I could fit in or feel more aligned with the situation. The problem is that…

Mickelle (21:15) Yeah, just not be stabbed

in the face all the time. Like just not overwhelmed your nervous system calm. what was that? No, I’m sorry. So I want to know how that led. So continue your story if you would about that process because you were in IT, you were kind of like in this environment where you were also feeling the people you were managing.

Yann (21:21) Yeah, so and that, yeah, sorry.

Yeah, so when they.

And

that’s a really good example on environment. after this experience at Doctor without Borders as an international project manager, I moved to become a freelance in IT. Because I really tried to adjust the environment. And I saw that by doing freelance job like

more clients, more projects, constant change, that would really help me to cope with this stressful situation and also take distance from the political and corporate issues. But after some time…

Mickelle (22:20) Dimension, it’s a dimension. Let’s call it a dimension. Yeah, so

it took that dimension away from your environment, which was helpful.

Yann (22:28) So at the end, it was really… I found out after almost 20 years that the problem was basically the environment. It was more the job itself. I was done with it and not really enjoying it anymore. There was things that I was enjoying. So first, the job.

the IT work or IT job is very rewarding in terms of financially. It’s very comfortable financially. It was really secure and helped me on making sure that my family could have enough money, that we can do everything we want, that we can build a house. That’s really good. And that’s really helped me a lot, especially as I mentioned, I use for many years anxiety.

and I got anxiety and working on my anxiety and recovering from a chronic anxiety I found out that yeah I don’t have the anxiety anymore of not being able to to to be the financially yeah so so then I realized that money was not really important to me

Mickelle (23:37) Provide for your family, yeah.

Yann (23:44) was a stress factor, generating anxiety, but was really not a driver. So I looked at my drivers and I looked at what really generated satisfaction in my IT missions, jobs, or whatsoever. And as an IT manager, project manager, I was really getting satisfied by helping my team.

I saw so many people struggling with high stress that I tried to support them as much as I could. So I helped people to avoid burnout because I was seeing signs of it and I was helping them to get aware that they were going too far. so…

Mickelle (24:26) And was this

after or before your own diagnosis?

Yann (24:29) So no, that was yeah exactly that was after my own diagnosis.

Mickelle (24:34) So you

were helping yourself and then helping others as you were going with your new awareness, which is really beautiful. That’s really cool. Thanks for.

Yann (24:40) No,

definitely… After I got a Doctors Without Boarders, I got the diagnosis of ADHD. And this is where basically I learned a lot about ADHD, a lot about myself. did sereté, how they call in Dutch, cognitive behaviour therapy to help on the ADHD.

And then I continued this growth journey with therapy. But after some point, I got kind of stuck in the therapy process. And by starting coaching, it really helped me to grow

Mickelle (25:16) And why do you think that is?

I think that there’s this really important point and a lot of people do get stuck here because especially if you are a mixed profile, I know you shared, I hope it’s okay I share it. You have now discovered you have the profile of, I always say it wrong, ADHD and autism. Is that right?

Yann (25:33) So yeah,

so exactly. So after getting diagnosed with ADHD, I also got diagnosed with ASD, so autism. So now I’m basically I have AuDHD. So it’s not an official term, especially the DSM-5, so the Bible of psychologists, is not recognizing this combination as really a…

Mickelle (25:40) So, yeah, which is, I love that you’re bringing this up. Yeah.

Yann (25:57) diagnosis, so it’s basically they’re really looking at ADHD and ASD very separately. Therapy and treatments are really separate, but many, many people, and especially now, I see a lot about it. You can see on Instagram, you can see on Facebook or on LinkedIn a lot about ADHD. So it’s autism and ADHD, which is really the combination.

And I have a feeling that AuDHD is kind of… Yeah, I don’t know if it exists, it’s more and more people have a combined version, or if because I’m also surrounded by people with this kind of profile, because pure ADHD, yeah, it’s kind of tough to really…

succeed or to really be able to move abroad, to be super performant. But the mix of it makes it easier because the autism on one side is kind of the need of structure, the rigidity, and usually also what they call the asperger.

So high potential smart basically combined with ADHD, which is more like impulsive and let’s move abroad, let’s do crazy stuff. It’s kind of, my brain is in constant battle. So my ADHD is like a…

Mickelle (27:25) Yeah, let’s go skydiving.

Yann (27:34) let’s go tomorrow to a party and my autism is like, yeah, I’m recovering from the flu and might get more sick if I really party tomorrow, so I should better not do that. Right now I’m really fighting. They are fighting together to really take the right decision. So it really helps. It helps to… So one compensates the other and the other compensates the other, but…

Sometimes it’s really difficult because then they fight, fight, and at the end nobody’s right and there is no decision taken. So AuDHD can be a really tough situation. If you’re interested, I can also give some example of common signs of AuDHD and make sure that’s interesting.

Mickelle (28:09) Hahaha

Yeah, let’s put

that in the link. Let’s put that if you have it. But I think it’s worth noting that everyone experiences this differently and that diagnosis only exists so that people can help. the diagnosis are changing constantly, maybe not in the DSM, but the DSM does change frequently because it’s a so far poorly understood way of a body and a brain working. It’s understood more and more, but now I think people who

are actually experiencing life this way are actually becoming more increasingly demanding that they be involved in the testing and diagnosing and all this stuff, because it really is hard to in a, if you are in a neurotypical body to make studies that are accurate for the experience. And so I think it’s worth noting that this is what you’re describing is something that has come from the community.

of people saying, wait, I don’t fit either of these manmade diagnosis, I’m a combination. And then more people were like me too. And so that’s how, this is a little bit a way of like people who live their life this way and were born this way are coming to the forefront and saying, hey, this is what I’m experiencing, which I think is really beautiful. And so what I wanted to ask you is therapy is a really, really maybe important step.

Yann (29:26) Yeah.

Mickelle (29:40) but a lot of people get stuck in this, where they’re like, they’re not, maybe therapy is helping in some ways, but then they need coaching on the other part to tell me how that worked together for you and how maybe you see it because they are kind of complimentary sometimes, especially if you’re diagnosed late, late. mean, you know what I’m saying? If you’re not a child and even if you are a child, you need help understanding how not only your past,

and how your body and brain work and how that’s affected you and like you said, caused anxiety or these side effects or comorbidities that go together. But then how do you move forward in this? Because there’s mourning maybe, there’s excitement maybe, there’s looking back at your life and going, oh, that makes so much more sense, I can imagine. But then you need to still live your life. You’re still an adult, you’re still paying bills, you still have a job. In your case, it led you

Yann (30:23) Hmm

Mickelle (30:34) to retool and reinvent how you spend your time, how you spend your time working. So tell us, maybe guide us through that, how it can work or how it did work for you and how you’re seeing it work. Because I think it’s important piece of the puzzle for people to understand. This is a big deal to re-understand how you work. Can be exciting, but also it’s a lot.

Yann (30:51) Yeah.

Exactly.

It’s really

challenging to get the right help and because as you said, everybody is different. Everybody experiences situations differently and everybody experiences ADHD or ASD differently and especially with some mix blind, blended mix. It’s really tough because let me take an example.

After getting my ADHD diagnosis and treatment, cognitive behavior therapy, I got my ADHD diagnosis and then I started the autism kind of therapy, you know, in a really specialized center for autism. When I arrived there, the intake I mentioned, I also had ADHD. And they were like, oh, that’s amazing.

That’s very interesting because we don’t really have a lot of experience with this and basically we learn from it. So I was a bit surprised, let’s say. Yeah, scared and not very comfortable with the situation because I was really hoping to get support and progress with, now that I knew that I had combined diagnosis that I could get help.

Mickelle (31:58) Were you a bit scared? Were you scared too? A little bit scared? Yeah.

Yann (32:14) So, but they really then focused a lot on the autism, where before I focused on the ADHD. And at the end, didn’t work out so much. And then I looked for someone that had the both experience. This person helped me. And the first thing was like, he was clearly saying that there is not a lot of people able to really…

treat or give. They don’t have the training to really address both. And even in terms of knowledge, it’s very, very tough to be specialist on both approach because there are sometimes there are common things, but they are also in contradiction. yeah, so in my case, know, blended, this combined diagnosis was a reason why

Mickelle (32:40) They’re not trained in it.

odds. Yeah, they’re at odds sometimes.

Yann (33:07) Typical therapy was not really working, but I have also discussed or heard from clients that even for single diagnosis on ADHD, they were not achieving or they learned a lot, psychoeducation, they learned a lot about coping mechanism, cognitive behavior therapy to stop some destructive patterns and replace by more healthy…

So, the problem afterwards, especially with ADHD, is about being able to implement and to use the knowledge, as I said before, the impulsivity, high impulsivity is really a problem because when I got the cognitive behavior therapy, 98

Mickelle (33:31) Yeah, they have a lot to share. Yeah.

Yann (33:51) 70 % of it. I already knew it, I already learned by myself and I already knew it. And the problem was not about knowing, the problem was that when I was facing a situation, I was unable to remember this knowledge and apply it. So this is where I really found the help and found the… managed to progress with coaching. Coaching really look more…

in the future look more at how to implement strategies that really work for you, how you can change patterns, how you can basically really implement and access the knowledge and be aware that impulsivity can be controlled on the way. So it’s also…

you know, help on accepting the diagnostic, which also takes a lot of time, accepting the disability part. But we are talking a lot about disability and stuff, but there is also a lot of positive stuff with ADHD. And I hope we also can conclude with this, because I really think it’s important to pinpoint all the positive stuff with ADHD.

Mickelle (34:46) Harnessed.

Yann (35:09) the only thing as we mentioned before in our current environment society.

Mickelle (35:15) I want to mention

one thing, Yann. I want to highlight one last thing and then I really do want to get, because I truly believe what you’re saying is true. There is something I’m picking up on that maybe isn’t true and I’ve studied a bit myself is this idea of being ADHD, autism, and maybe even they call it 2E. So high intelligence with a difference in neurology.

Again, I don’t want to diagnose you, but I think a lot of people who have made it very far, like you said, you already knew a lot of these things. You had to learn it on your own. This happens a lot with, like if you have high, and again, this is not a bragging thing. So if you’re a 2E, it’s like you have a high IQ and a difference, a neurological difference. And so I don’t know if I’ve, what I’m sensing is maybe that’s how you got through.

Yann (35:56) No, no, no, I am. And I

even read some people that believe or some studies that are trying to look at the link between high IQ and ADHD. And they believe that the ADHD would be the cause of the high IQ because of the ADHD, there is a need to cope and a need to adapt and a need to

Mickelle (36:20) Constantly, yeah.

Yann (36:20) I find strategies

constantly to fit in the society and starting from really young age when you arrive at school or in kindergarten. So you really have to learn, I have to find solutions. And there is a theory saying that it’s really pushing the development of the brain in order to be more…

develop the, you know, get more intelligent in order to be able to cope with ADHD. So there are stuff, no real conclusion, I think around it, but a lot of theory, which would make sense. So…

Mickelle (37:03) Yeah, I like to think of

it as being bilingual. It’s almost like you’re bilingual in your nervous system where you’re like, I know this is what people need me to do. I don’t do this naturally, but I can translate for them.

Yann (37:14) And especially in the population that get diagnosed as adult, they have seen that a lot. Or in people that are not diagnosed and suspect ADHD, but are able to live or to survive. And they also learned from the young age that surviving is normal thing.

Mickelle (37:37) Operating. Yeah,

that’s their normal life. Just surviving

Yann (37:39) Which is at the

end, if you talk with neurotypical people, they just live their life, are in stressful situation or sometimes something, but they are not in constant survival mode. Because if I take again my experience of moving to Netherlands, two kids, two young kids, two jobs, ADHD, and especially also, I didn’t mention it before, but my wife also after I got diagnosed with ADHD.

Mickelle (37:49) constant.

Yann (38:05) she, when she filled in the questionnaire for me, was like, that’s also okay. So she recognized it on herself. So at the end, she also got diagnosed with ADHD and with ASD. This was also the reason why I got diagnosed with ASD. So we are both AuDHD So both of us with AuDHD moving abroad, we were like in a constant tornado, know, constantly in crazy situation and constant stress.

So we were. For us, was normal and being in survival mode all the time. it makes me laugh because yesterday, watched while I was thinking about this interview, I watched my son playing Minecraft. And then he started his game and it was survival mode. I was like, hmm, yeah, that’s it. I’m in constant survival mode. I have been.

Mickelle (38:35) and you thought it was normal. You think that’s just life.

Yann (39:00) And since the diagnosis, since therapy, coaching, and all the work I have done since then, I have, I’m shifting from survival mode to just living. It’s not all the time. I’m still recovering from the survival mode and I’m still my instinct and my basically the reflexes to…

go back to survival mode as soon as something goes wrong. But I’m able to just have a, just live. And that was impossible in the past. And I just had no clue. so yeah, so I think a lot of people.

Mickelle (39:44) And is

that what you would describe how you, what you’re doing with your clients is to, to bring them into this privilege of just living.

Yann (39:52) Yeah, it’s about awareness, helping them and guiding them to just basically be aware, get aware of their situation, of this pattern, of how they cope with the situation, and to be proud of it because…

Mickelle (40:21) Yes.

Yann (40:22) You know,

it’s a lot of people are like just blaming or feeling guilty that they didn’t succeed or whatsoever. But we say AuDHD or autism or both, you know, achieving so much is just like they should be proud of it. Of course, it comes with a price and that’s where it’s never too late. Because I also heard people like really, you know, adult…

Like over 60 like now it’s too late for me to do anything about it and I have experience I talked with a psychiatrist on this and he mentioned that he has seen some people like 65 plus when they got retired they started stimulants that they it worked for them and they were like wow and then they start to work Psycho education learn about ADHD and they were like, how did I do?

Mickelle (41:13) Yeah, they were able to be more.

Yann (41:21) How I am still alive.

Mickelle (41:23) Yeah, they suddenly

give themselves credit for what they’ve been doing their whole lives. And medication or not, like that awareness will get you a long way of understanding your life story better.

Yann (41:27) Also, yeah, also.

Exactly. So, so yeah, so coming back to my experience and my situation. after 20 years in IT, I, and the only positive thing was to being able to help people. I decided to, to, leave this, this, this job behind and become a, an ADHD coach, because with the knowledge I have on, especially with my own ADHD and the,

Mickelle (41:36) Yeah.

Yann (41:59) the passion I have to help people. becoming an ADHD coach was obvious and it’s really, I’m really fulfilling a dream now. And I’m finally, a lot of friends, a lot of people around me are saying that I really see a big difference. And since they mentioned as soon as I stopped working in IT and I started this journey.

Mickelle (42:03) This is a superpower.

Yann (42:26) Yeah, they are really like, they see a difference in me and they’re very, very positive about it. So very happy and very, you know, happy that I have the chance to have the chance to be diagnosed. The experience I had to then move to this domain and this work because I really love it.

And to pursue this passion, I’ve started a really big, and indefinite training program because it’s very essential to become a successful coach to have continuous training. I don’t think, and that’s also very interesting because I’m very curious and I’m a person that can get bored quickly. So I…

Mickelle (43:13) and you’re in a

field that changes constantly. So that works great.

Yann (43:16) You got it.

Mickelle (43:18) Yeah. And Yann, want to, we, you and I talked earlier about this and I really want to make sure people hear it. So your clients often come to you with a problem or a tip of the iceberg is how you described it to me, which I really loved. So, so tell me about that process when your clients come to you, because it’s often maybe their spouse or their, come with a problem. So start there. They come with a problem and then tell us about your process, because I think it’s really unique.

Yann (43:30) Yeah, exactly.

Mickelle (43:44) and also powerful.

Yann (43:46) So basically, initially, when people contact me, we have a first intake. During the intake, as you mentioned, they come with a problem. If not, they wouldn’t come. And this problem is really the top of the iceberg. And coaching is about guiding the coaches or the client to dig deeper and look at what is behind.

the hidden part of the iceberg to uncover underlying issues or patterns or the reasons or the real problem behind and explore the emotional connections with it because usually a lot of the problems are related to emotions and when they are able to

to go and understand better the problem. It’s really important to really look at it with different eyes and find truly effective solutions. So it’s really common that the first request, I call it request for help, that is expressed by a client after the intake sometimes or…

or after the first session, it completely changed. It’s linked, but it’s totally different. So that’s very much how coaching is addressing and how coaching is working. It’s really a great tool to be able to understand yourself, to know yourself, to better understand and explore.

Mickelle (45:09) Yeah.

Yann (45:23) the challenges or the problems more deeply.

Mickelle (45:27) Yeah.

And would you say that you act, so I think for me, this is what I would imagine. If you have this new awareness or maybe you’ve known officially being told that your brain and your body works a different way than, than you thought. And then you’re also still an adult or you’re even an adolescent in middle school or something and you’re, still have to operate at that same level, but you’re learning how to operate a new kind of machine. So that’s one, I don’t like.

referring to bodies as machines, but you know what I’m saying? Like your manual just changed with how you operate in the world. So that’s one step, but then every emotion and every action you have usually is pretty logical, right? Like people don’t really act illogically that different that often, but when you understand what’s underneath it, that’s when you can actually change the things that are maybe bothering you. But if you’re just trying to change the action, it will never be lasting or it’ll be harder or more.

Yann (46:16) And then, yeah.

Exactly,

but change them or accept them because also a lot of teenagers or adults being diagnosed recently, they just have difficulties to accept that there are things that they are not good at. Because they have, on some other things or…

Mickelle (46:24) Yeah, that’s really good. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yann (46:43) for things they love, they are really able to do amazing stuff. They are really super smart and super capable to do really complex stuff when there is dopamine. So when basically there is interest, when they love it, it’s really easy. But things that they really don’t have interest or also on some executive functioning.

I can go explain that further after. some processing of stuff, or thoughts, memory, or things, they are just not able to. And they really like, when they look at themselves, they see like, yeah, I’m super capable of this complex stuff, but this easy thing. And just, I cannot make it. I’m very stupid. I’m really stupid. And that’s how they start to…

to identify on something that is wrong. And that has already an impact on them in self-esteem, and it’s going to have a bigger impact on the long term. So by already accepting that there are things that they really cannot do, or it’s really tough, and by looking for how they could do it, if you take me as an example, I’m

Mickelle (47:35) self-identify. It’s like almost like you’re.

Yeah.

Yann (48:01) Really I have the syndrome of the white sheet. So if I need to write something and starting is very difficult because there is a white sheet. I have a lot of ideas. The ideas and the content is not the problem. It’s just starting. Where do I start? And now that there is AI, I just dump my ideas in AI. It’s giving me some start. I put it in the sheet.

And then I’m starting. Then I’m almost everything and I’m not really using AI anymore. At the end, perhaps for grammar because I’m not an English native. But it’s really helping a lot. And before I was like beating myself saying, I am smart. I’m educated. I should be able to do it on my own. I’m not going to use AI because this is for lazy people. No.

Mickelle (48:32) And you go, and that’s part of this acceptance. Yeah.

Yann (49:00) It’s just tools that are available that help you. So by accepting this, it’s also because sometimes problems are really, the solutions can be really different. And by exploring the different solutions with the coachee, I usually brainstorming sessions. The coachee comes with a lot of ideas.

I bring some ideas just to add on top of it. And the last idea I asked the coach to bring is like, me a stupid or a crazy idea. And it’s funny because this crazy idea can become really the solution. But upfront, they would be like, no, that’s too crazy.

It’s not something it’s a good idea, people will judge me, blah blah blah. No, if it works for you, whatever idea, whatever solution is good.

Mickelle (49:54) Yep. And you’re never going to be, it’s never going to seem normal because you are not. But yeah.

Yann (49:59) Now, and what is normal,

you know? Being normal is a concept I already fought when I was a teenager and a young adult. I was fighting it, saying that being normal is just being part of the majority of people. But if everyone would have ADHD, the people without ADHD would not be normal.

normal or not, it’s a concept of perception.

Mickelle (50:28) Yes, absolutely. I could talk to you about this for hours, literally. I want to go over one more thing about, I think, what your approach. think what’s sometimes, it’s not for everybody, but people who have neurological differences often feel things differently, and they can feel into things differently. And I think that when we were talking before, I felt that in

Yann (50:41) you

Mickelle (50:51) one of your superpowers is to be able to empathize in a new way. And so you said with your clients, you help them see where they’re maybe lying to themselves, which is a really strong word, but it’s a really loving way of saying, there’s a block and maybe I can help you find it. And that will unlock a bunch of magic. And so I think that’s partially part of your magic as well.

Yann (51:13) Yeah, the coaching is, the magic of coaching is about asking questions, you know. So as a coach, I’m asking a lot of questions so that the client can reflect and look at, you know, hidden spots. Because usually,

Mickelle (51:30) Hiddensfazien.

Yann (51:31) I developed skills and I developed a really good approach on how to identify these hidden spots. And this is usually where the problem is. And this is where I’m going to ask a of questions. And sometimes, coachee doesn’t feel good about it and feel a bit…

disturbed by this approach, but at the end of the session, they are very happy that they learn at looking at these hidden things, you know, because this is where…

Mickelle (52:05) Yeah. These are usually really

sensitive bits that are there for a reason. And now it’s holding them back, they were through childhood, moving through the world differently or just hiding certain things. They needed to do that, but now they need to come out. And I’ve heard it said, and I’ve had it in my own life. That’s actually where a lot of your gifts can sometimes lie is looking at those blocks, having someone help you identify them and lovingly.

Yann (52:10) Yeah.

Mickelle (52:33) either just notice them and accept them or remove them. That’s a really powerful, powerful thing to do and also a very sensitive or vulnerable thing to do. So it’s both and it’s actually really beautiful. But I think in my experience talking to you, I think that this is something we didn’t get to cover enough of, but I sense is your superpower.

Yann (52:37) Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, and on the other end also, as you mentioned, a lot of people experience shame, as you say, not feeling okay to request help because they believe, not they believe, but they manage to go on, especially in adults, to succeed in life or to cope or to survive.

without help until now and asking help, you know, lot of people and even myself for the long time before all this journey, I was like, yeah, I am very good at analyzing, I’m super analytical, I’m very creative in solutions, in ideas, so I should be able to find the problem myself and find a solution myself. Why do I need help?

And this is where really people should stop having this belief that they can achieve everything by themselves. And it’s funny because I have discussion with people around that during networking events or chit chats. And they’re really liking to hear, I don’t need help because I can manage and stuff. And I’m like, and then I’m.

I’m this example, I’m saying, what do you do as work? And usually they are working in a complex environment with a lot of people. I’m saying, okay, so the work, the result of the work is collaboration between a lot of people. You couldn’t do everything by yourself, right? No. So you need others to be able to accomplish complex stuff that perhaps you could do on your own, but that would take you ages.

It would be very difficult, but by having other people and getting help from other people, it’s really much easier and you achieve really a lot of stuff by collaboration and working in group. And they are like, yeah, sure. It’s suddenly like this, we’re very collaborative, very good stuff, very oriented to teamwork. I’m like, and that’s about coaching. It’s really a partnership, a collaboration to really…

Mickelle (54:46) Yep.

Yann (54:55) help the person to go deep, to look deeper and understand and learn faster.

Mickelle (55:05) Yeah, it’s a project,

I call it the project of you. The project of you and uncovering your strengths and where you wanna go in life. I think that’s an excellent place to end, Yann. I have a feeling we’ll be talking again. We will link to how people can contact you in the footnotes, in the show notes, but just say it out loud, how people can contact you for coaching or questions.

Yann (55:24) Yeah.

I have my own practice in Amstelveen. That’s called a Coach 4 ADHD. So for 4. I coach people in French and English, teenagers, teens and adults. Clients can either come to my office or we can do it online. Even thinking about walking coaching session for the summer, because I live near the pole there and the Amstel. So I’m very flexible.

Mickelle (55:31) And you coach people in French and English, is that right?

Yann (55:49) What is important is that it works and it’s different for every person. So I’m really looking at what works for each person. Usually I start with face-to-face sessions and then transition to online meetings. That’s very helpful, especially with people when people struggle with the punctuality with ADHD or the stress of being in person appointments.

So they can contact me either via my website. So there is a booking system. Usually it’s really better to start with an intake. There is a free intake of 30 minutes where we look at the problem and we learn to know each other and see if that works because that’s very important.

that there is a really good connection between the coachee and the coach. It’s very different than really with psychologists or therapy because usually with HRES-Ed, with the Dutch mental health system, you don’t have a lot of choice. You just take the person available. Here, really important to choose your coach that you feel good with. And also a very important thing, so they can contact me for sure, but if they…

Mickelle (57:01) Mm. Right.

Yann (57:12) They find other coach. I’m very happy for them. Just they need to make sure that the coach is a member of a coaching association, Dutch coaching association, because coach is not a regulated job. So basically, everyone can call themselves a coach. So be careful on choosing the right coach. And usually, these coaches are

Mickelle (57:29) right.

Yann (57:37) basically a number of associations that the association is checking that the coach is has the right skills, competencies, also strictly adhere to code of conducts, strict code of conducts. So that’s very important. So on my website, they can book an intake and I’m happy to then to be

Yeah, to discuss and look at the problem with them.

Mickelle (58:05) Thank you, Yann. I really enjoyed this conversation and I feel like we could talk about this for hours. I could geek out on this. I will link everything in the show notes for people. Thank you everyone for joining us and I hope you enjoy the rest of your day.

Yann (58:17) Thank you so much.