House Of Peregrine (01:03)

House Of Peregrine (01:47) Welcome, Melissa and Chris. I am so excited to have you on today. Please give us just a quick intro of who you are. I am actually a fan of your work for a very long time, so I’m really excited to bring you to our podcast. But start out with, tell me a little bit about your story, how your international story started.

Melissa And Chris Bruntlett (02:07) Sure. Well, first off, thanks, Michaela, for having us on the podcast. We have also been following along since we moved here and since you and I met probably five or six years ago now for coffee. Yeah. So I’m Melissa. This is Chris, if that’s not clear. And we sort of started on this international journey in the around 2010 or so, or maybe a little bit before that, when we were living in Vancouver, Canada, and made the decision to

sell our family car and use the growing cycling network, walking and public transportation in the city to move around with our young family and found out fairly quickly that people were quite interested in our story simply because most people would see us cycling around with our kids who were one and three when we started and being like, how do you make that work? How is that even possible? And yeah, took a chance on sharing our story on different platforms and it just kind of exploded from there.

Yeah, that’s a very nice way putting it. I think with the benefit of hindsight, you know, we could say this was always part of the plan, but we’re always the first to admit this was never a part of the plan. This was us following a passion and an idea of creating a better neighborhood in a better city, first in our hometown of Vancouver, and then, you know, elsewhere in Canada, and then elsewhere in North America, and then in cities around the world.

with each opportunity that’s come our way, you we continue to pinch ourselves that our stage and our platform and our ability to have impact and influence continues to grow. But if you’d have told 23-year-old graduates, Melissa and Chris, that this is where we would have ended up 20 years later, we would have laughed at you.

House Of Peregrine (03:52) Yeah. Yeah, well, I think I even I connected with you. think your kids are just slightly older than mine. But there was a little bit of a movement. And maybe you can tell me your inner journey of this. So my story was I just lived in an urban center, Salt Lake City, when I had my first baby. And I was like, why do I have to move the suburbs? Like, I don’t understand. Like, life is actually set up really well here. My husband’s office was right down the street from our house. It was like a little nest that we could see each other during the day. He could come home.

Melissa And Chris Bruntlett (04:16) Mm-hmm.

House Of Peregrine (04:19) And I started having these realizations and started studying urban planning because of my kids. And because of what I saw as human-centric cities being super important for women and children and the fabric of society. And so tell me just quickly, did you study this at university? What were the inspirations that came in to start you bringing your story with your children, riding bikes? Tell me that a little bit.

Melissa And Chris Bruntlett (04:47) Do you want to start? Well, again, I mean, I guess you could say some of the skills that we learn in university led us to this point, but really in the grand scheme of things, not because I studied architecture and Melissa fashion. mean, the way I describe it is I initially thought I was interested in

the design of buildings and realized very quickly after graduating that I was more interested in designing the space between the buildings. But for us, it was always just about living and traveling to places with vitality. And we gave a presentation on this topic recently. We were asked to talk about this topic of vitality and looking back at our personal and professional journeys. This is the connecting tissue that has underlined a lot of our decisions about where to live.

or where to travel to and ultimately, you know, bringing us to the Netherlands and writing the books that we have is to share these stories of vitality and try to describe what that is and how it benefits the people of the city. So from East Vancouver to Delft and everywhere in between, this has really been part of our lives and, but never part of a classical traditional education, never really part of a, like I said, a master plan. This is just where our

Yeah, our interests and our passions have organically taken us. Yeah. And I think, you know, the kids definitely had an influence, but I think all along, you know, we studied in university in Toronto, Ontario. So it’s, you know, it’s kind of considered Canada’s version of New York City, And from there we decided, you know, we’re downsized to a smaller city at the time, but we still chose to live in the centre. We still always chose to be

in a place where we could walk easily, where we could connect with the local community. We weren’t always having to be reliant on getting in the car, in part, because that’s how we grew up. We grew up in a traditional North American suburb. Counting down the days till we got our driver’s license. Using public transport when we had to, but never really falling in love with it in the way that maybe we are now. And then, when we had our daughter, suddenly we…

started seeing the world a little bit differently, moving around with her, with a stroller, on a bike, with her in a bike trailer. And then again, when our second, when our son came along. And I think for us, was, you know, part of the reason that we started writing was to share this idea that people can live in centers. I mean, that’s part of why we chose Vancouver and the neighborhood we did as well, because again, so walkable, so bikeable.

We could get the kids to everything they needed without having to get in the car all the time. And I think that’s that urban vitality that Chris talked about. That’s what we’ve always sought in terms of where we live. It’s, you we joke that we never go on holidays to beaches and resorts because we want to see the urban fabric of other places. So we seek out places, cities to visit where we can enjoy that as well. So it’s, yeah, it’s always been a part of the story that we’re trying to share.

House Of Peregrine (07:39) Nice. I I resonate so strongly with this. I mean, I’ve given a TED Talk about a moment in a car when I realized the entire system was oppressing me. And then this moment of I tell this moment all the time of like realizing with three little kids in car seats, I was going to be in this car till they are 16, which at that time was 16 years from now. And then realizing how that limited me and my choices as a woman.

Melissa And Chris Bruntlett (07:57) Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

House Of Peregrine (08:06) And not that I didn’t want to be with them at their activities, but realizing just how, and I don’t know if it’s only for women, I think for men too, but as a woman, it made me realize in many ways economically, mobility, the ability to work and to have my own creative pursuits, how it was limiting me to be in this car and spend this time in this car. And so for me, the car is a big, like I have a lot of moments in my life that were realized in the car.

Melissa And Chris Bruntlett (08:07) Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

House Of Peregrine (08:35) and how I didn’t want to be in a car with three kids. So we had the big bike with the kids on the back in Salt Lake City where it was just a spectacle. And so I think that this inevitably led me and maybe you too to finding a place where I could live as an individual and as a family in a more, I think it’s more naturally connective way. And so that led us to Amsterdam and to the Netherlands because of the bike.

Melissa And Chris Bruntlett (08:42) Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

House Of Peregrine (09:00) And the bike is just simply an expression of the way the city expresses, if that makes sense. And so for me, it was like a sign, like, bikes. So was like Copenhagen and Amsterdam were the two places we were looking at. Because I was like, the bike was the symbol of the caring that was taken for the social fabric, if that makes sense. And the independence, yeah. And so for me, that was kind of the sign. But tell me the story about you guys. I mean, because your work

Melissa And Chris Bruntlett (09:05) Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

House Of Peregrine (09:28) started in Vancouver and then has evolved. So tell me, when did the first book get written and then how did you evolve to the Netherlands?

Melissa And Chris Bruntlett (09:36) Yeah, no, that’s yeah, I think our evolution into ending here is a similar sort of path as yours, but maybe, yeah, slightly a little more windy, maybe. But we, you we’ve been working as advocates.

House Of Peregrine (09:47) You were bringing everyone

along with you. I just went myself. You guys were writing books and doing all this great work to prove the theory. yeah, windy or just bringing everyone along with you. You choose. Yeah. Yeah.

Melissa And Chris Bruntlett (09:50) Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, it’s an adventure, right? You want a good story. It has to be a good

denouement at some point. for us, think, yeah, we’ve been working as cycling advocates for probably about

House Of Peregrine (10:03) Yeah.

Melissa And Chris Bruntlett (10:10) four to six years or so in Vancouver. And we had been seeing a lot of the images from the Netherlands that were really inspirational and Copenhagen as well. And really felt like we had reached a point where if we really wanted to make a go of this, of really sharing these stories, we had to experience it firsthand. And that led to us coming to the Netherlands in 2016 for five weeks, visiting five cities with the idea that we would write a series of articles for a local publication.

in Vancouver, just to show that we’re not just, this is not something we’re just saying is a reality, it is actually something that can be realized. Exactly, exactly. But what we found in that five weeks is that, yeah, we knew the cycling would be great, we would all enjoy it, and the kids would be able to cycle on their own much more comfortably and safely than in Vancouver.

House Of Peregrine (10:46) Yeah, that’s not bike, big bike propaganda.

Melissa And Chris Bruntlett (11:02) But we all kind of fell in love with the life that we could live here. And it was, it was beyond the bike. Although everyone always says, well, you just moved here for the cycling, but it was more, you know, being able to walk into the center and go to the market or seeing people face to face, like so many fewer cars moving around. Giving the kids their first taste of freedom, which I think for us as parents, they were what six and eight at the time. Yeah. This light bulb moment where suddenly we let them walk to Vondelpark.

in Amsterdam from the apartment we were staying at maybe six or eight blocks away and felt safe and capable that they would get there and back safely. Whereas we’d never dream of doing that in Vancouver. And so again, was much bigger than just the bike, but.

the quality of life that was offered in a place that just had fewer cars in the streets. Yeah. And then so from that, yeah, I said we were supposed to write five articles. Well, those articles, we wrote them and didn’t feel like we scratched the surface on the story to tell. And that became the basically the outline for the first book, Building the Cycling City is, you know, how did the Netherlands become cycling utopia? There it is. But also

you with the help of our publisher, linking it to cities in North America that are doing it, because we always hear, and I’m sure Mickelle you hear it as well. Yeah, but that’s Amsterdam or that’s the Netherlands. We can’t do that in America. We can’t do that in Canada. And we’re like, well, you are, we are doing it in our own way. And so that’s, yeah, that’s how book number one came about. And then from that became basically our job interviews for the jobs that would bring us here in 2019. Chris for the Dutch cycling embassy and then me for at the

time, Moby-Con, which is a local consultancy that also works in Canada and the States. yeah. But it was really taking everything we had learned as storytellers up to that point and pouring it all into this book, you know, in terms of the photography and the writing and the, yeah, the weaving together of a narrative of this future utopia of what’s possible, but also practical examples of where it’s happening.

And yeah, the reaction to it was just incredible. mean, again, we are so grateful to Island Press, who gave us this opportunity, a couple of nobody bloggers, bike advocates, to give us the opportunity to actually publish a book and then to be invited around the world. You know, we were speaking in Christchurch, New Zealand, in Brisbane, Australia, in Bern, Switzerland, and to go on this global speaking tour.

To tell the story of the Netherlands for it was quite surreal and obviously led to these opportunities that we had working for organizations that were doing exactly that, promoting the Netherlands knowledge and experience and exporting the best practices and the ideas to other places around the world. So it was quite a seamless transition from a couple of bloggers turn authors into now.

what has been our day jobs for six years where we’re actually kind of in the trenches, if you will, working directly with cities and decision makers around the world to make their streets more inclusive and equitable and less car-centric.

House Of Peregrine (14:02) What, yeah, I wanna ask

you, what is the effect of bringing, why do cities want to bring in the best practices from the Netherlands? Tell me, first tell me what that does economically, why would this be a thing? And then second, what do you think the, why do you think the Dutch got it right?

Melissa And Chris Bruntlett (14:22) That’s it. Yeah. The second question is actually, I it’s a lot more complicated than I might make it sound, but it was a lot of happenstance. The Netherlands was on the same trajectory as most North American cities, most other European cities. Cars were just the new toy, the new shiny thing, the innovation that was going to save cities. Exactly. Yeah.

House Of Peregrine (14:22) Those are two big questions, I know.

It’s like your iPhone. Yeah, it’s like your iPhone.

Melissa And Chris Bruntlett (14:45) It was accepted as an inevitable part of progress of urban planning. And there was very little resistance in other places around the world, but in the Netherlands, they fought back.

It was this, you saw this incredible rise in traffic fatalities and injuries because there were so many cars where you had a culture that was already cycling everywhere already anyway, lots of people walking around. So there was a lot of pushback and movement for that to, to make the street safer again, sort of the best.

icon or the most notable of that is the Stop de kindermoord movement which translates to stop child murder which was started by teachers and parents and advocates that you know wanted to make streets safer for kids again so they could walk to school without mom and dad having to always hold their hand.

And then also you have the OPEC oil crisis and the Dutch government actually being quite proactive and saying, okay, every Sunday is a car free Sunday. We’re not going to drive. We’re going to save whatever fuel we have. And then suddenly there’s this like moment, this light bulb for a lot of people that, our streets are meant for something more than just moving from A to B. They can be places to gather, places to connect.

that the road safety crisis together with this realization that the streets were meant for something more than just cars sort of became the catalyst that would be 20 years of experimentation to get to where we are today. Yeah. Yeah. So it’s a difficult question to answer.

House Of Peregrine (16:12) No, but I

think what the story you’re telling is that they kept that. And you see pictures, and this is something I didn’t know. I’m American, and I came here thinking, oh, it’s always been this way. But then you see the parking lot that was the museum quarter. And in my neighborhood even, there were parking lots where now there are plines, where there are playgrounds, where there are things. And so there was a push.

Melissa And Chris Bruntlett (16:26) Mm-hmm.

House Of Peregrine (16:39) for the car to take over like everywhere else, like you’re saying. And that’s not a story you hear often. You just think, it’s a European capital. They’ve always had this cultural understanding that you have to walk places. But that’s actually not the case. They fought back. They kept that value. I mean, the wooden shoes have not stayed. They’ve let go of other things. And so it’s not that there are. But that social fabric or that meaning of streets having other things that are not just

Melissa And Chris Bruntlett (16:43) You

Yes. Yeah.

Yeah.

House Of Peregrine (17:08) They’re not just portals from one place to another. It’s super important and it’s a little bit what I think other places are coming back to. Streets are important. Human scale streets are important.

Melissa And Chris Bruntlett (17:10) Hmm

Yeah.

Yeah. And so when we’re asked this question and we kind of try to describe what are the cultural traits of the Netherlands that caused them to prevent the car from taking over in the cities. And I think it’s really two things. There’s an inherent stubbornness not to accept the common wisdom and to push back against, again, this kind of acceptance by elected officials and economists and decision makers that the car was inevitable part of progress. The population stood up.

to that idea and said, no, we demand something different. And then they really, you know, that’s not enough to just do that. You have to mobilize and actually create political change. And that’s really what they did. The families, the parents, they formed these coalitions and really mobilized behind the politicians that were willing to make change happen. And everything we’re seeing in 2025 around changes to streets like…

backlash from business owners and death threats to elected officials and controversy. And this all happened in the Netherlands as well 40 or 50 years ago. The key difference is they pushed through the controversy. They recognized that it was only a small segment of society that was pushing back against this idea. And they really had through the consensus and coalition building a quiet majority behind them.

Just over 50%, that’s all you need to get something done in this country again, because of the culture of the polder model, is decision-making through consensus and bringing all these various stakeholders from the city together to come up with a common vision. so they, yeah, at the end of the day, know, they’re one of the few countries in the world that avoided this fate. And as Melissa said, you know, for decades they’ve…

gone through trial and error and establishing best practices. And now they’re kind of at this point of leadership and responsibility, we feel, to share those ideas and best practices to other cities and countries that are just coming to similar inflection points and recognition that the car can no longer continue to dominate. But they’re 50 years behind. So the Netherlands obviously has a lot to teach them. So they can skip the error part of the trial and error and go straight to the stuff that works and hopefully.

Yeah, go at this at a very accelerated manner.

House Of Peregrine (19:38) Yeah, and I think that I live in the center of Amsterdam where air quality standards, think very people realize that the EU has very strict air quality standards that they’re trying to meet. And it’s very interesting to talk to you because you think, oh, it’s the center of Amsterdam. Everyone’s going to feel very progressive about this. Nobody needs their car. But that’s not true. They’re still really having to, they’re really aggressively going.

Melissa And Chris Bruntlett (19:49) Mm-hmm.

House Of Peregrine (20:04) against making cars more and more uncomfortable in the center of the city, even since I’ve lived here for eight years. They’re closing streets aggressively. They’re definitely making it. It’s a value, but not everyone is like, it’s not all rainbows in the political sphere for what they’re doing to do, especially in center of Amsterdam and maybe other centers in the Netherlands. But it pays off. And in my discussions with people, like, I mean, if you live here, they’re kind of doing you a

Melissa And Chris Bruntlett (20:18) No.

Yeah. Yeah.

House Of Peregrine (20:32) favor but you don’t

Melissa And Chris Bruntlett (20:33) Well, we have

practical example of that, which we share in the second book, Curving Traffic, is we didn’t know this at the time, but the main market square in Delft here, this beautiful historic square that was the home of the fruit and vegetable market twice a week, was a surface parking lot for cars as recently as the early 2000s.

The idea of making it car free was met with such fierce resistance from the business owners in that square because they were afraid they would lose customers that it took a single vote on council, you know, and a pilot project, a six month pilot project to try it with half the square for half the year. And obviously seeing is believing and the rest is written in history. But if you visit that square today, 20 years later, you feel like it was always that way. And you get the sense that

everybody living in Delft would 100 % agree that this is the right step to make. But at the time, two decades ago, it was so controversial and razor thin, the vote. And that’s what we need to remember is everywhere we do this, it’s not going to be easy and straightforward, but the long-term, the legacy of it is so critically important. that’s what, as we say, seeing is believing. And people, once they experience a lot of these concepts, they really get behind them quite forcefully.

I think the one thing I would add to that, and I said this to you yesterday, think we were, or two days ago, we were walking around and one of the arguments against closing the market square for cars here in Dalton, opening it up for patios and for people and events and weekly markets and all those things was, well, this isn’t the Mediterranean. We don’t have a patio culture here. We don’t do that. And then I’m walking around or we’re walking around, you know, these last couple of days where the temperature is, it’s a…

cold or spring temperature at the moment, a little bit rainy, and the patios are full. And the moment the sun is there, like everyone is facing the sun, enjoying a coffee or a beer or whatever. And it’s exactly in Northern Europe, you know? So clearly that was just an excuse, but it’s interesting because now I’m like, I want to remind these people that this is what your fellow citizens were saying, you know, 20 years ago, and now look at you.

House Of Peregrine (22:26) Yeah. Suddenly we’re a Mediterranean culture.

Yeah.

Yeah. And it strikes me that it is very cultural, right? So cars are a very individualistic thing to do in a way and to design around. And squares and human scale streets and cities are actually a more collective thing to do. And we know from the work of many people, my guiding light was a little bit Jane Jacobs, like going that direction. And actually, that’s the test for a city.

for me is if a wheelchair or stroller can easily make it through or has access. And then if you can walk to everything you need, if you have an injury or if you are on your own, can the system help you instead of you having to do everything on your own, carry your groceries to your car, da da. You’re an army of one instead of a collective.

Melissa And Chris Bruntlett (23:10) Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

House Of Peregrine (23:28) The Netherlands is not a utopia of collective only either. So they are threading this needle and they’re a really good example. But when you’re speaking to say North American cities or places that are maybe a little bit more, even more individualistic, how do you explain this difference?

Melissa And Chris Bruntlett (23:46) Yeah, I mean, that’s a great question. it takes understanding who you’re speaking to a little bit as well, I think. And one of the big things I think we emphasize is it’s not what we’re talking about, we’re sharing, the stories we’re sharing is not about telling other cities to copy and paste it, but to find a system that works in the context of where they are.

I think of, for example, if we’re speaking to audiences in the US, know, taking into account a lot of the cultural baggage that exists there and understanding that there’s, have to come at this from a different way. so often it’ll be looking at it from an economic perspective. What can the businesses gain? You know, switch, shifting the conversation to maybe a little more individualistic, but the individual individualistic for the collective benefit. if we.

put bike lanes on this street or if we create a street that’s a lot more calm that invites people to come and spend time, you’re benefiting the individuals who want to come and spend time and be around other people and enjoy a coffee on a patio, but you’re also benefiting the business owners for their economic vitality. thinking about the conversations that will resonate, I think, is how we can have those conversations when we’re talking with different.

cultures, I think. And you’re right. mean, it’s not a utopia here of collectivism, for sure. And we’re seeing that now in the in the politics at the moment. yeah. Yeah.

House Of Peregrine (25:10) Yeah. But somehow that’s comforting in this discussion, I think, because it’s not

like it’s a communist, like it’s not what people, from where I’m from, which is admittedly very individualistic, you speak about Europe and it’s like, yeah, but they can do that. They have communism and nanny states. There’s all these words we use to demonize the collective action.

Melissa And Chris Bruntlett (25:25) Yeah.

Yeah.

House Of Peregrine (25:36) But it’s just not true. It’s just not what’s happening here. And so in a way, it’s comforting. But I think what I get back to on this conversation, and maybe you do too, is no matter how you look at it, it’s an advantage.

Melissa And Chris Bruntlett (25:37) No.

Yeah, exactly. And I think this is the other point we always try to make is we’re not here to take all your cars away. And because people are so used to thinking in monocultures, know, a car dominated system is what they live and operate in. So they think we’re coming to argue for the opposite, a completely car free system. Whereas of course the mobility mix in the Netherlands, we think we argue is a win-win for everybody because if you’ve got maybe a third of your…

House Of Peregrine (26:16) Yeah, explain that mobility mix. Yeah, explain

that.

Melissa And Chris Bruntlett (26:19) Well, most Dutch cities, know, a third of the movements are made by car, a third by public transport and a third by cycling and walking. And by having those choices and options, depending on the trip you’re taking, the distance, the luggage, the destination, et cetera, you have the freedom to choose and the people who still want to drive and need to drive, they have very little traffic congestion, by the way. you know, it’s not, yeah, it’s really a nuanced conversation that’s…

somewhat difficult to have. And I mean, the other thing we’re always trying to do is to encourage people to think outside of their own lived experience. And this is also something that a lot of people struggle with. It’s like, yeah, the car dependent status code works for you just fine. But what about a third of the population who doesn’t have access to a car? Children, the elderly, people with disabilities, people with low incomes. We’re assuming that they can access everything they need.

through an automobile, well, it turns out they have to be dependent on others or a public transport system that doesn’t work or be excluded from society as a result of the urban planning that we’ve executed over the years. So it depends on your audience. Yeah. Yeah.

House Of Peregrine (27:19) Yep. Yep.

which we think is progress. Yeah, which we think is progress. It

really strikes me that you’re getting back to this word vitality. So vitality for more people and even vitality for the people who are able-bodied and able to drive. Let’s talk about that a little bit at this point. tell me how, for me, I can write a thesis, I can talk about this for days, about how living in

Melissa And Chris Bruntlett (27:36) Mm-hmm.

House Of Peregrine (27:51) this third, third, third, mine is more like half, half, half. Like I use a car maybe twice a week to take my daughter to ballet. So, but my vitality as an able-bodied person, you know, like I have all the privilege. My vitality has increased by millions, right? And my ability to express in the world how, like break that down for us. Like the word vitality, like let’s just go with that. Cause I love it.

Melissa And Chris Bruntlett (27:56) Yeah. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Yeah.

I think, well, I mean, when we when we talk about and I think, Mickelle in listening to you, you’re thinking of it too, is that it’s sort of this ability to live in the way you want to live and that the city helps to support that. And I think a lot of our work, especially in the more recent years and following the research and work for curbing traffic, which was the second book, was really talking about how a system that

is not focused on car dominance, rather fewer cars in public spaces, not cutting them out completely, but just finding that balance ensures that, like Chris said, children can walk to school or walk to friends’ houses or go to the corner store like many of us did in the 80s, let’s say, to go and buy candy or what have you. And we live in a culture now that is like, well, why don’t kids go outside? Why don’t they play outside?

Obviously a nuanced argument, but one of the critical things is if there’s so many cars out that it’s not safe for them to even cross the street, why would any parent say, yeah, please go outside and play? so Vitality is making sure that they can enjoy the access to the city that they deserve, whether they’re with parents or independently. And then similarly for older adults and people with mobility challenges, those that can’t drive anymore or have never been able to drive that we’re not saying to them, well, you

therefore don’t have access to same access to the city. Your vitality is minimized because our mobility system says that it has to be this way and it just doesn’t work for you.

And so I think that’s what it is, is understanding that we’re all coming to how we need to move, how we want to move, the things that we have to access from a different place. But urban vitality or living, yeah, the vitality of our cities is predicated on making sure that the most of us don’t feel limited in how we move. And, you know, there’s always people that will experience some lack of inclusion in the system. I had

A conversation years ago with an expert who beautifully put it that a city will never be 100 % inclusive because we are all unique. What we’re working towards is that the most of us feel that we’re not excluded from the system as well. And I think that’s, yeah, for me, that’s what vitality is, is ensuring that the most of us have as much access to the things that we need in our daily lives and the things that bring us joy, you know, that we can possibly achieve just, you know, through small and big action.

House Of Peregrine (30:41) Yeah, and it strikes me that it’s not no cars, it’s yes vitality. So if you design around a car, it affects everything. It affects the size of fridges. It affects people’s health. It affects income possibilities for people who are providing care work to their families. Loneliness goes up. And so it’s not the car.

Melissa And Chris Bruntlett (30:46) Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Exactly.

House Of Peregrine (31:05) It’s the mentality that’s behind building the way we build and what ingredients we put into the pot, if you will. And then there’s some intangibles that we do miss that you can’t actually design for that are just natural human processes. Like you said, a good example is my kids were able to walk out. They wanted to make a little bit of pocket money. They did this without me. They went out to the bars around our house and the little shops and they said, hey, can we work for some

Melissa And Chris Bruntlett (31:12) Yeah.

House Of Peregrine (31:32) money and they always do, they give them a few coins to wipe off tables. I couldn’t have purchased, planned, I couldn’t have conceived of this idea, but it just happened naturally. The intangibles of the woman who lives across the street from me being able to have help from the neighbors because it’s not an inconvenience to help her lift something. The sharing of the car that I use, the car share I use.

Melissa And Chris Bruntlett (31:41) Yes.

Mm-hmm.

House Of Peregrine (31:55) It can’t be done if your houses are far apart and the mentality is different. And so for me, it’s not the car, but what the car.

what designing around the car might lead to, if that makes sense. You’re not fighting the car.

Melissa And Chris Bruntlett (32:04) Yeah.

No, Yeah.

I think this was described beautifully for us when we were researching the latest book was we were talking to people in Paris about that city’s more recent transformation. And they said, you know, Paris is now turning back from this mindset that their streets are places for passing through into places that are for passing time. And this complete mindset shift that’s taking place there.

I think really epitomizes the struggle and the approach that we’re trying to take is the car has meant that we now see streets simply as traffic sewers, as places where we want to get from A to B as quickly as possible. And anything in the way of that is an obstruction, even human beings. And so of course, movement will always play a role in our cities and even…

Dutch cities have specifically designated arterial roads that are designed for movement, but the vast majority of the streets here are places to stay, places where people put out furniture and plants and there’s beautiful brick detailing and people actually spend time to, yeah, sell things on the street or chat with their neighbors or, you know, have a cup of coffee. so the street, the re-imagining of the street as a place, as a public space is I think the main

challenge that we’re facing in the 21st century and part of the work that we’re lucky enough to do, yeah, now as urban planning professionals or whatever you want to call it.

House Of Peregrine (33:30) We’re calling

it Urban Planning and Transformation. It’s beautiful. So moving on to your next book, because it’s coming out later this year. And it’s all about women-led cities. Is that right? Do I have that right? And tell me, I think this is so similar. And it happens a lot. And it’s a conversation that’s happening, especially right now. It’s not men-led cities. It’s not.

Melissa And Chris Bruntlett (33:39) Mm-hmm.

Yeah, absolutely.

Exactly.

House Of Peregrine (33:56) It’s not we hate

the car. It’s not not men led cities, but there is a difference and you are exploring it. And so tell me about that. Tell me what you’re finding.

Melissa And Chris Bruntlett (34:06) Yeah, well, the idea for the book came about because I for the last how many years, three years now have been working with an organization funded by the German Development Bank called Women Mobilize Women. And they work a lot in terms of network building, capacity building, just information sharing, knowledge sharing, largely with women in emerging economies in the global south, but also in the global north in terms of showing how the transport sector can be for.

should be for more women. And from that, I had the chance to meet a lot of wonderful people. At the same time, Chris and his work, he gets to travel all over and meet a lot of great leaders that are doing transformational things. And we started to see this recurring theme where a lot of the cities that were moving fast, that were getting things done, creating these great transformations were led by women.

And so we sort of asked ourselves, is there a secret ingredient that women know about that’s making this happen? And so that became the thesis is like, what places can we visit and learn about how they’ve come, what they, what.

they’ve done to achieve what they have. So looking at Paris, looking at Barcelona with the super blocks, looking back at Montreal in Canada, which is a city near and dear to us, looking to cities like Bogota. Campala, Manila. Yeah, and where women are helping to shift that. And I don’t want to give away the story, but there it’s like you said, it’s not that it’s not not men.

The characteristics and the things that these women leaders have shown in terms of what they were able to do to achieve change, to achieve positive impact from the city leading level, but also from the advocacy level as well. There are characteristics that anyone can.

achieve and often it comes down to leading with things like empathy of, know, making sure we’re having conversations and, coming back to what we talked about earlier, this polder model of building consensus, you know, that’s, that’s how we can achieve the changes that we want to see in our city that benefit the most people that are not about removing all the cars on the streets, but rather making sure that all of us can, you know, enjoy the spaces equally.

And so that’s sort of what we try to unpack while also sharing the stories of transformation, whether that’s developments of school streets or more open streets programs or building advocacy to create a cycling network where one didn’t exist before to ensure that those people that can’t afford to drive or spending hours in public transport to reach work have another choice.

House Of Peregrine (36:13) Yeah.

Melissa And Chris Bruntlett (36:35) We hope it inspires people. We have some takeaways at the end of what we think some of those magical ingredients are. Again, I emphasize they’re not female only traits, but yeah, we’re quite excited to share it with the world and see if it helps to spur more change.

House Of Peregrine (36:51) Yep. And so I want to bring that through. So these women are embodying these traits right now in different cities around the world, and you’re finding the connections between them, right? And that’s really beautiful. Also, look up my hometown, Erin Mendenhall, mayor of Salt Lake City. She’s fighting the good fight in a very interesting place where the city wants to do things that the state will not. So that’s a super interesting one. So I’ll plug her. But.

Melissa And Chris Bruntlett (37:14) Yeah.

House Of Peregrine (37:17) What I want to bring through is that when you’re choosing a city to live in, if you are, there are some traits. If you want to live in nature, you have that value. You would go to one of like Mexico or, you know, there’s lots of places around the world where you can be immersed in nature on the beach. There’s a value. But like you said, and maybe a little bit like me, you vacation to cities and then see how human they are. And for me, that leads to the question of

Melissa And Chris Bruntlett (37:39) Mm-hmm.

House Of Peregrine (37:42) How can people gauge the livability of a city? I know I have my ways, but for me as a woman and a woman of a certain age who still wants to be in her career with kids and wanted to learn another language, Amsterdam was the perfect city for that because I can see my kids a lot, be in their lives, be in a really crazy career leading a tech company. so living every facet of myself at a very high level.

So that was my choice. But when you’re gauging the livability of a city, bikes are one thing, and I know you guys are really into bikes, but so much more. How do you gauge how your vitality would fare in a city if you’re looking for a place?

Melissa And Chris Bruntlett (38:22) Yeah, I mean, think it’s a very, you know, we talk about the collective and working all together, but it is a very individualistic thing. It’s what do you value? And I think a lot of the work that we do, the workshops we have is asking people, what is it that you value? What do you value of this space? And then, you know, how do we achieve that? For me, I think years ago, when the kids were quite little, it was always the cities where there was places to play.

And the cities that had that, whether it was big or small, that’s how I knew that they had taken into account not just the experience of getting, know, of like the corporate life of going to work and having, you know, midday lunch with colleagues and then going home to the residential neighborhood, but having those spaces to play. you know, extension from that is also having the public spaces to sit and spend time, not necessarily to spend money, but to be around people. For me, that’s how I gauge. That’s very individualistic.

This is one area where we go completely on vibes. It’s very difficult to articulate, right?

House Of Peregrine (39:17) Yeah, but you guys speak,

you speak urban planning fluently. Some of us don’t. So give us the secrets.

Melissa And Chris Bruntlett (39:21) Yeah.

Yeah. But when I think back to the cities that really kind of caught our hearts, more recently, Oslo, Bern, Ljubljana, Lisbon, I have a very difficult time explaining why. Again, it’s just mostly vibes and feelings. But one thing we always try to do is to live like a resident as much as we can, not stay in a hotel, but try and stay in a residential neighborhood. Try to not…

mostly eat in restaurants, but also to do the local shop. And that gives you a completely different experience of a city. I think the other thing we’re always doing, of course, is photographing and sharing on social media. It’s what do the streets look like? What do the public spaces look like? What do the people look like? And so that becomes part of processing that place and how much vitality it ultimately has.

House Of Peregrine (40:13) Yeah,

what are the markers of vitality? Is it a well-stocked grocery store? Is it talkative people? And of course, it varies. It’s like taste, right? Like it’s like wine. You can’t say which one is the best. But the markers of vitality, think, are, of course, you take into account your life stage, right? If you have kids, not kids. If you’re partner, not partnered. But there are markers of vitality that I’ve found, which is like access to fresh food from every, from walking.

Melissa And Chris Bruntlett (40:18) Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

House Of Peregrine (40:40) Right? Like you should be able to get fresh food by walking. Like bikes. Yeah.

Melissa And Chris Bruntlett (40:42) Yeah, it’s also, yeah,

for us, it’s, you know, the access to nature and doesn’t have to be a forest or climbing a mountain like it would have been for us in Vancouver. We were climbing a lot of mountains, anyway. Yeah. But just having, you know, having that access to, to treat spaces. And I think, you know, Chris mentioned Oslo, they have this beautiful linear park.

House Of Peregrine (40:56) I spent some time in Vancouver. That’s an amazing mix right there.

Melissa And Chris Bruntlett (41:08) in their city that you can, you have the respite from the built environment and you’re like right along running water with trees and you having that balance alongside being around people and I think that for us that’s one of the key things is if we’re in a place and we kind of feel like we’re the only ones walking then it doesn’t really, it doesn’t attract us to want to spend a lot of time. We’re like we’re not weird, it’s just like the the place we want to get to is you know 500 meters away, we’re gonna walk there.

House Of Peregrine (41:27) Run.

Melissa And Chris Bruntlett (41:37) And when everyone else around us is driving or… I think one other thing we do, and unfortunately we’re doing this less and less as the kids get older, now they’re 16 and 18, but when we have the opportunity to travel with them is to try and see the city through their eyes and to ask them what they think. And I think they give us a lot of insights as we’ve already shared about their experiences in Amsterdam. When we visited there in 2016, they cried at the end of the week when it was time to leave the city because they knew…

what they were going back to, the freedom that they were giving up. so we like to also ask them about what they think about the city. And a lot of those cities that I mentioned, Oslo in particular, they had a lot of love for that place because of its walkability, because of the public spaces, because of the vitality of it all. so I think children in particular can be very insightful in that regard as well.

House Of Peregrine (42:32) Yeah, so if it’s good for the tiny humans, it’s good for the big humans. We already know this.

Melissa And Chris Bruntlett (42:35) Yeah. Yeah. Well, I

think the other, the flip side of that too is, we find it quite amusing and sometimes a little bit sad, but when our parents come to visit us here, they walk everywhere and they take the train to get around and, know, they discover many places in the Netherlands, but they’ll also take the train to Belgium, you know, and they’re like, I love this. Why can’t we have this at home? And then we’re like, yeah.

House Of Peregrine (42:55) Belgium, Paris, yeah.

Melissa And Chris Bruntlett (42:57) And so I think it’s, you know, as much as kids are the indicators, also older adults, you know, our parents are in their late sixties, early seventies, and they love, you know, the vitality they experience here and wish that they could have it. take vacations to go places that do have it. And I think that’s coming back to why we do the work we do. I would, what would be wonderful is if we could help the cities where they live.

become a little more like this for them, but then also for our nieces and nephews and the tiny humans in our lives also.

House Of Peregrine (43:27) Yeah, I feel that so strongly. And North Americans always think they always pine about Europe and how the food’s so good and da da da da. And it is it’s such a good story to tell that it wasn’t this is not fated. This is not ages old. This is deliberate action. And of course, they’ve had their their misses. mean, there’s an airport right next to Amsterdam. We all know like there’s there’s lots going on. It’s not a utopia. But I think that’s a really beautiful.

Melissa And Chris Bruntlett (43:41) Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

House Of Peregrine (43:52) notion that you want that for your parents and even in their own way in North America. But yeah, that’s really fun. in your work going forward, I know that you guys have evolved a little bit. So Chris, I always say it wrong, it’s your work will continue as the Dutch Cycling Embassy going forward. Melissa, your work is evolving a little bit with this new book. You’re showing a different

Melissa And Chris Bruntlett (43:57) Exactly.

you

House Of Peregrine (44:16) you’re going deep on something more or something different. So do you want to tell us a little bit about that?

Melissa And Chris Bruntlett (44:21) Yeah, so, well, a little over three months ago or so, I made the decision after much consternation to explore being what we call them ZZ payers here in the Netherlands, but an independent consultant. Yeah, working in this idea of mobility and vitality. So looking at it very much from

House Of Peregrine (44:33) consultant.

Melissa And Chris Bruntlett (44:40) How can I use my skills as a narrative builder, storyteller, as an advisor that’s spent years?

know, exploring mobility and its different facets all around the world. How can I help others to achieve more inclusive and equitable mobility? And I approach it very much from this idea of empathy that I mentioned earlier, because I think where a lot of cities want to be, they have the ambitions to be wonderful, inclusive spaces for all different types of mobility, and they go forth and they design, they don’t take into account maybe the reasons why people are moving.

the way they do, whether that’s the fact that they’ve got four kids and they have to get to three different schools and just cycling to all of them is not going to make sense. Or they have a service job where public transport doesn’t serve them and so they’re going to drive. And I think understanding that why and then coming at it from a place of, you could do better, but I actually understand how that might be limiting for you. Now let’s work together to find a solution.

I think the cities that do that see greater success. And so my hope is that as a consultant, I can help them achieve that and also help to inspire some behavior change along the way as they craft their narrative of why they’re doing what they’re doing.

House Of Peregrine (45:55) Yeah. And Chris, I have a feeling because we spoke earlier and you guys are both so into each other’s work. You’re collaborators in high level and low level ways. Of course, you’re also married and that’s the ultimate collaboration. But how have you… I love this perspective that you have as a man watching this evolution. I know this is a big question, but maybe you can give us some of your impressions.

Melissa And Chris Bruntlett (46:11) Yeah.

House Of Peregrine (46:21) watching Melissa evolving this way and then this new book.

Melissa And Chris Bruntlett (46:26) Hmm. Yeah, that’s a big question. Yeah, mean, yeah. Where do we even go there? Somewhere positive,

House Of Peregrine (46:29) I I saved it for last.

She’s like, don’t say the bad stuff.

Melissa And Chris Bruntlett (46:41) No, think, I mean, I’m obviously Melissa’s biggest fan and best hype man. And I think since we moved to the Netherlands, I’ve watched her in various ways be undervalued by her employers. I think in the world of traditional consultancy, you know, there’s a very much a focus on billable hours and, and yeah.

House Of Peregrine (46:41) Well,

Melissa And Chris Bruntlett (47:08) creating a profit for the company. And I think, unfortunately, a lot of what the value that Melissa brings and the value that I bring to my organization, but I’m lucky enough to work for a nonprofit is really intangible. It’s the storytelling aspect and networking aspect that is very much with the long game in mind. We’re forming relationships with

individuals and organizations that may come to fruition five or six years from now and you can’t put a number or a value on that. Yeah. And so I’ve watched, you know, Melissa take the stage as a twice published author and a keynote speaker and then her organization kind of just shrug their shoulders and go, yeah, but what, has that done for us lately? And so I was, I think, and continue to be very supportive of this step out onto her own because

House Of Peregrine (47:37) Yeah. Where does that go on the spreadsheet?

Melissa And Chris Bruntlett (47:59) Suddenly she’s doing it for herself rather than for somebody else’s benefit who undervalues or doesn’t appreciate it. so, yeah, it’s think quite special to see it and, also to play a little role in that as her co-collaborator and co-author. And she’s also, you know, now an expert within the Dutch Cycling Embassy Network. So when I’m working on workshops or study visits or other knowledge exchanges,

She’s one of the 100 or 200 experts that we draw from for those types of activities. And so our paths cross still through our day jobs in very interesting and exciting ways. just were lucky enough to travel to Miami together three weeks ago to do a couple of workshops and a keynote presentation, which was only the second time that we stood on stage together in front of an audience, the second time in two years. So what started out, we…

House Of Peregrine (48:51) Well.

Melissa And Chris Bruntlett (48:53) we did this all the time during the first book has become less and less lately as our individual day jobs kind of don’t diverge but maybe run parallel to each other a little bit. yeah, at the end of the day, I think we very much have the same mindset and the same skill set. I just really lucked out in terms of working for the Dutch Cycling Embassy and that I can

I don’t have to count my billable hours and provide this economic return to my organization. now I think Melissa can really focus on having an impact and like I said, doing it for herself and has nobody to impress, but well, maybe me a little.

House Of Peregrine (49:32) Yeah. Can I tell you what I see?

I see two people who are making incredible impact by allowing each other to grow and supporting each other and affecting the collective. And it very much follows your work in the cities, what you’re doing on your own. So this collective, this collective bend, this seeing the intangibles, these are all

what informed your work that you do in your professional lives, but also a 20 year relationship where you’re both growing and evolving and affecting the collective in such massive ways is the ultimate collaboration. And so I think it’s really beautiful. I don’t know if I’ve nailed it, but I see, that’s what I see when I look at both of you and the work you’re doing in the world and your relationship that I don’t know you very well, but I have, I think I can glean from there.

Melissa And Chris Bruntlett (50:20) Yeah.

House Of Peregrine (50:22) So it’s a love story that’s really beautiful that you have with your work and each other. So congratulations.

Melissa And Chris Bruntlett (50:27) Yeah,

I think, you know, we get asked this question a lot of like, if people say, you wrote a book together and you started a company together and what, and you have a family, how do you do all that? Like I could never work with my partner and I don’t, I don’t recommend this to everyone. It takes a lot of work. Not negative work, but just, you know, communication. People talk about that being the secret to relationships. It really is, especially if you’re going to work together. But I think we’ve

Although we do similar things and we kind of approach things in a similar way, we complement each other in a lot of ways. and it’s not to say, when I say this, makes it sound very simplistic, but Chris is really good at.

understanding the technical side of things, of breaking down the numbers and remembering them and figuring out how they fit into the narrative. And then my strength is, it tends to be a lot more of what is that human side of things? What is the impact to us as individuals, the emotional story behind it, and then weaving those two together. And it’s not to say that one of us can’t do the other, but I think when we do it together, that’s when the magic happens.

House Of Peregrine (51:30) more powerful.

Melissa And Chris Bruntlett (51:32) kind of thing. I think, you know, that’s why. Yeah.

House Of Peregrine (51:35) Respecting that difference. mean, speaking as someone who really respects their partner of 20 years as well, I think the missing ingredient to everything is communication, is that there has to be a respect for what you bring to the table, and a reverence for what you bring to the table. And you guys are doing that. But sometimes it’s easier to see in your partner than it is in yourself. Yeah.

Melissa And Chris Bruntlett (51:47) Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Yeah, for sure.

Yeah. and I think we both still have moments of self doubt and that imposter syndrome and we hear, you know, people around us saying, I can’t do that. And we’re like, I don’t know, fake it till you make it. That’s how this goes. It’s not just a singing.

House Of Peregrine (52:03) And that’s good.

Yeah. Well, but that

it wouldn’t be growth if it weren’t uncomfortable.

Melissa And Chris Bruntlett (52:15) Exactly, yeah. And I think there’s a suitable level of humility, that’s okay, but I think having some humility of knowing that, you know, okay, maybe I don’t have the right answer yet, but I’ll figure it out as I go, I think has been part of what’s made this successful for us is understanding we don’t have all the answers and there’s always room to grow and always people to learn from. Yeah.

House Of Peregrine (52:39) Yeah.

And you’re asking that of the collective. You’re asking what you yourselves are, what you’re asking of cities and municipalities and individuals is, yeah. And lastly, progress isn’t always linear.

Melissa And Chris Bruntlett (52:43) Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

House Of Peregrine (52:56) And

progress isn’t always progress. I think that’s a word you brought up earlier, Chris, that I really wanted to just make sure I a thing under, is the car was seen as the ultimate progress. And now we’re seeing in relationships, in cultures, in everything, progress isn’t always what we think it is.

Melissa And Chris Bruntlett (53:07) Mm.

Yeah, absolutely. And sometimes the most innovative thing you can do is revisit old ideas and technologies. And that’s kind of also part of the story we tell because if you go to these big tech conferences on the future of mobility, you see these futuristic renderings of autonomous cars and flying cars. And this is seen as inevitable. And for us, it’s, it’s, yeah.

We haven’t taken into consideration the impact or the reality of having thousands of drones flying in the air or, you know, everybody living and sleeping and working in their cars.

House Of Peregrine (53:50) Yeah. What about

the other technologies? I have this conversation with my partner all the time. I’m like, oh no, that’s a technology. It’s a human technology. And he’s like, he’s a tech guy. So he’s like, that’s not technology. So we’ve had this conversation over the years where I’m like, no, no, no, no, no, there’s a lot of technology that we use all the time that is intangible. So you can’t really say technology is one thing, but human technology is the intangible stuff that you guys are accounting for. It’s invisible, but it’s there.

Melissa And Chris Bruntlett (53:56) Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah, and I mean, the irony of all of those, like this automotive innovation that’s happening around us is that at the end of the day, even the people that are creating these new physical technologies or this new innovation for the future.

all they want is still that social connection in some way, or form. And they’re still traveling to the European piazzas and saying, I love it here. And why can’t we have this? It’s like, well, we can, we can have a balance of both. I think that’s the other, it’s always this irony of looking to innovation for innovation sake. Well, how can we have innovation alongside respecting what it is that we want, what it is we value in our daily lives, the connection, the ability

to be in nature, the ability to have interesting spaces around us that we can enjoy as opposed to just passing through as Chris said. No, exactly.

House Of Peregrine (55:10) Yeah, it’s not a luxury to enjoy your life.

Guys, we asked a lot of big questions today. Thank you so much for going on this journey with me and giving us insight into your work, but also as a way of actually realizing vitality in not only your individual life, but as a collective. I love what you’re doing. I hope to follow along. Can’t wait till your book comes out. You know I’m a super fan and we’ll let our listeners know when that comes out. Is there anything else we didn’t cover that you want to say to our listeners?

Melissa And Chris Bruntlett (55:17) you

Hmm, no, I just wanted to riff a little bit on what you just said, because vitality shouldn’t be a luxury. I think particularly in North America, we’ve built so few places that have vitality that they are seen as a luxury. They’re seen as elitist or

And often when we go to a city and start talking about walking and cycling, it’s like, yeah, but that’s only for the privileged few that can afford to live in those types of neighborhoods. And our answer to that is, okay, well, we need to make more places walkable and bikeable. And so this idea that the cheapest, most accessible forms of transportation are somehow elitist is kind of, gives you an indication of how messed up things have.

House Of Peregrine (55:55) Mm-hmm.

Melissa And Chris Bruntlett (56:17) have become and hopefully we can continue to change that narrative that this is the most egalitarian, these are the most egalitarian forms of transport in city building and it really is the car that is elitist at the end of the day because it is so expensive and inaccessible to a lot of people and great cities that are expensive and inaccessible to a lot of people.

House Of Peregrine (56:40) Yep,

yep, I love it. All right, you guys, I could talk to you for hours. Let’s drink on a terrace in a very non-elitist way next time you’re in Amsterdam. But yeah, thanks for coming on. And thanks, everyone, for joining us. Please feel free to follow along and find out more from Chris and Melissa at their website. We’ll put all the details below. And thanks again for joining us.

Melissa And Chris Bruntlett (56:49) Yeah, sounds great.

Thank you for having us, Mickelle